Shooting within a base width.

The rules say you can shoot within an element base width of directly forward for most elements. A question came up at a tournament on whether you can shoot at an element that is exactly 1 base width away. It turned out that some people thought yes and some thought no. Based on the interpretation that a unit that is exactly a base width away is still in Zoc I thought yes but I don't really care either way and want to play it correctly. The situation is two lines lined up with each other exactly can an element shoot at the second element over as long as it is otherwise in range and not blocked? In the case below can X shoot at C?

X.Y.Z

A.B.C

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

The rules say you can shoot within an element base width of directly forward for most elements. A question came up at a tournament on whether you can shoot at an element that is exactly 1 base width away. It turned out that some people thought yes and some thought no. Based on the interpretation that a unit that is exactly a base width away is still in Zoc I thought yes but I don't really care either way and want to play it correctly. The situation is two lines lined up with each other exactly can an element shoot at the second element over as long as it is otherwise in range and not blocked? In the case below can X shoot at C?

X.Y.Z

A.B.C

The answer is No.

Phil may be an Engineer, but he isn't a Mathematician (Geometer). If you consider the ZOC square, the side edges are NOT considered part of the ZOC region, and the front edge IS considered part of the ZOC region. Same thing for the firing arc -- if an element is exactly 200p away, you can shoot at it. But if it is exactly one base width to the side, you may not -- the side edges of the region are NOT considered part of the region.

OK now I understand. Apologies to anyone affected by the wrong ruling.

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

The answer is No.

Phil may be an Engineer, but he isn't a Mathematician (Geometer). If you consider the ZOC square, the side edges are NOT considered part of the ZOC region, and the front edge IS considered part of the ZOC region. Same thing for the firing arc -- if an element is exactly 200p away, you can shoot at it. But if it is exactly one base width to the side, you may not -- the side edges of the region are NOT considered part of the region.

Fair enough, but is there somewhere I can point to in the rules or the Unofficial Guide where this is written down? The next time this comes up I would like to be able reference something other than "DK said so in a post a few months back."

If I would have thought more about it I should have realized the base width was not inclusive to the sides or else any group of units lined up exactly would Zoc the unit across and to either side which would cause all sorts of shenanigans as units cut the corner to engage in more favorable match ups which would ruin the game. For the same reason it is important that a base width be inclusive to the front or else any time an elephant or chariot got recoiled it would be able to engage in the same type of shenanigans. In short it would destroy the game as we know it if it worked any other way. I tend to remember whys a lot more easily than whats so I shouldn't have a problem remembering this one in future.

Originally Posted by Tony Aguilar

Fair enough, but is there somewhere I can point to in the rules or the Unofficial Guide where this is written down? The next time this comes up I would like to be able reference something other than "DK said so in a post a few months back."

On ZOC: page 33.

Originally Posted by Unofficial Guide

Unless blocked, the ZOC includes the front edge of the ZOC region (i.e., unless the ZOC is blocked, an element exactly one base width away is considered to be in the ZOC). The ZOC does not include the side edges or the front corners of the ZOC region.

On Shooting Arc, I couldn't find any text excluding the edges of the zone -- looks like we missed it. But it should be excluded.

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

If I would have thought more about it I should have realized the base width was not inclusive to the sides or else any group of units lined up exactly would Zoc the unit across and to either side which would cause all sorts of shenanigans

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

For the same reason it is important that a base width be inclusive to the front or else any time an elephant or chariot got recoiled it would be able to engage in the same type of shenanigans.

Right.

Same deal with shooting -- if the side edges were part of the shooting zone, then when groups were lined up and the two lines were within 30mm of each other, a shooting element could shoot an element that is two basewidths to the side (measuring center to center, that is).

Originally Posted by Tony Aguilar

Fair enough, but is there somewhere I can point to in the rules or the Unofficial Guide where this is written down? The next time this comes up I would like to be able reference something other than "DK said so in a post a few months back."

You can say Bob said so too. There has never been any interpretation that would allow a shooter faced by a line of 5 enemy lined up in front
ABCDE
where the shooter is opposite C to shoot at the end elements, A and E.
The rule refers to
"within an element base width of directly forward "

to shoot at A and E the rule would need to be within 2 base widths of directly forward.

That'll work, Bob. I don't disagree with the ruling, but I guess it would have been more clear (at least to me) if it had been written "just less than a base-width" instead of "within a base-width." Just another case for having some diagrams in the rulebook. I know that I am preaching to the choir....

The main reason it was confusing is because within a base width frontally for Zoc includes exactly at a base width but it doesn't to the sides and nowhere that I could see did the rules address whether exactly at a base width was allowed or not for shooting.