Nice easy query

A rank of spear gets a +4 and +1 for a second supporting rank of spear. Can it claim another +1 for a supporting Psiloi element behind the rear rank of spears?

Sp
Sp
Ps

The wording implies that you cant but if you can claim the plus 1 when Psiloi offer "diagonal support", surely you can claim it here?

[ October 04, 2005, 06:46: Message edited by: AlanYork ]

No. The wording is very clear. You can claim support from a second rank under some circumstances, but never from a third rank.

DK,

That is not the way it was explained to me at a Historicon last year. The idea was the Ps were intermixed into the Sp and as such they could support from the third rank and support the Sp to either side as well. The non-support was for third rank Sp and Pk, not for the Ps. And I believe that this was from Phil himself.

Mike S.

DK,

That is not the way it was explained to me at a Historicon last year. The idea was the Ps were intermixed into the Sp and as such they could support from the third rank and support the Sp to either side as well. The non-support was for third rank Sp and Pk, not for the Ps. And I believe that this was from Phil himself.

Mike S.

Originally posted by Stelzone:
DK,

That is not the way it was explained to me at a Historicon last year. The idea was the Ps were intermixed into the Sp and as such they could support from the third rank and support the Sp to either side as well. The non-support was for third rank Sp and Pk, not for the Ps. And I believe that this was from Phil himself.

Mike S.

You are refering to the next situation, and then you are correct in that Double Sp gets support:


SP SP SP
SP Ps SP

The Ps in the centre supports all three front SP elements, The left and right flank elements could also benefit from Sp support.

But No support if it is

SP
SP
Ps

Cheers,

Anton

Thanks Snowtiger, that was my interpretation of the first diagram with the "diagonal support", that's actually worded fairly clearly in the rules.

The second example, ie the one I asked about, is fairly clear also, I just wanted to make sure the rules actually said what I thought they said, as opposed to what I thought they may mean.

It's all clarified for me now.

As an aside, I am finding now that I'm getting more pleasure from playing DBA and big battle DBA than DBM. Maybe it's just my mind getting slower as I hit 40, but I find that DBM now has a level of complexity that I just can't be bothered with. They were amended recently, and in fairness the amendements are pretty good, benefiting infantry armies. However the tortuous writing style just sends me cold and quite literally gave me a headache when I tried to re read them.

Well anyway, I posted about this on a different website (The Miniatures Page) so perhaps this isn't the place to discuss it, besides it's off topic. So thanks again for your help and to the other responders too of course.

Kindest regards
Alan

[ October 04, 2005, 07:56: Message edited by: AlanYork ]

Un fortunatly that is the way I thought it worked, But was told if it works that way why wouldn't it work in the other.
So I was told that (It was Phil or Mr. Barker in a more polite society; by the way who said this.)

SpSpSp Will give support
__Ps__

SpSpSp will give support
SpPsSp

SpSpSp will also give support
SpSpSp
__Ps __

I asked this after we had finished a game and were waiting for the next games to start. And the wording above was his not mine in the end. I was sure that the first two examples were right but bothered that there was a question about two and three being possible and his comment was if the first two work, why wouldn't the third as the support was really the psiloi mixed in with the spearmen giving the support. That is the way I hve been ruling and explaining it since. It maybe that he has changed his mind but it was what I got from him. I believe Bob has also ruled this way in the past.

I don't mind being wrong, I just don't like being wrong after asking him about it and having him change his mind later. It wasn't the last Historicon as I wasn't there, but the last East Con we were both at together.

[ October 04, 2005, 12:24: Message edited by: Stelzone ]

Mike,

I think this is the danger of going to Phil with all of these questions. As I have said many times before (and you have as well ), Phil has trouble keeping track of what he has actually written. I'm sure when you showed him the example, he thought it perfectly reasonable for the Ps to provide support as a third rank -- the problem is that is clearly not how he felt when he wrote the rules.

My feeling is this: the rules are pretty clear on this subject and we have a widely accepted interpretation in place, so why change a good thing? Ignore Phil and keep playing the way the rules are written and generally understood.

Originally posted by Stelzone:
I don't mind being wrong, I just don't like being wrong after asking him about it and having him change his mind later.

I don't think that Mr. Barker really changes his mind on these things. Its more that if you ask him a question, you get a random answer. He just doesn't put enough effort into his response to give it any value. There are lots of reasons: he's busy, he's written scores of rules (including multiple versions of DBA), and he's got a lot on his plate right now. But mostly it's just not important to him to get it right.

- Jack

I have never asked Phil if this was legal
SpSpSp
SpPsSp

Because I am sure he would not allow it, but I am often wrong.

SpSpSp
SpSpSp
XXPsXX

Cannot be true because the actual rule uses term
"element of of Ps lined up IN CONTACT directly behind them.

Now my understanding of IN CONTACT may be wrong, but does that not mean "touching"

Mike, you are delegated to call Mr. Barker and clear this up.

[ October 04, 2005, 12:56: Message edited by: Bob.(& his dog) ]