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  #1  
Old 06-20-2004, 02:37 AM
dicemanrick
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We used a BUA in a campaign game recently (I'm a charter member of the BUA Delenda Est club...so no comments, please!). How does barkering work? Does one opposing unit on a side prevent the troops inside from exiting? If it's a long side, does a barkering enemy unit affect the entire lenth of the side? Does a barkering opponent stand prevent the defender exiting on any or all of the four sides?? Enquiring minds want to know! The occupying troops can teleport through the BUA to exit on any side, so what's the scoop?
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  #2  
Old 06-20-2004, 03:45 PM
xeswop
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This is an excellent point to raise, thanks.

A element in a BUA has no set position. It exists inside, in effect, all over the BUA. A BUA can be attacked by up to three enemey and these could be anywhere on the outer perimeter and the inside element could fight them all. The element inside can move out at any point along the permiter. The inside element exerts control all around the BUA for a base width distance.

No one has ever asked what control the external elements exert. This is clearly not covered by any rules, directly. The inside element has no facing so we do not know where its rear edge faces. We know that it can move as needed to combat any external element in contact with the BUA.

Any explicit statement on what the internal element can do when an enemey is within a base width distance must be an interpretation. A related question is whether an element in a BUA can break off from an element in contact, left from, for exampl, a tie result in previous bound.

I would make a first stab at this situation by saying the element in the BUA within a BWD of enemy, can exit from any point around the BUA but only as a move to its rear, thus ends facing the BUA and cannot move other than straight to its rear unless allowed multiple moves.

If in combat with an enemy, then it must go at least 200p from the BUA edge. If in combat with enemy, then the exit must be directly opposite that element. If that path is blocked then it cannot exit, just as it cannot break off.

In the latter case, normal pursue rules apply. If there are denizens, then the pursuing element must fight them prior to entering.

An element that has captured a BUA but not yet thrown a 5-6 on PIPs cannot vacate a BUA so such an element could not leave in the above situations.

These are all my interps based on current rules. Looking forward to other views, based on the rules.
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  #3  
Old 06-20-2004, 04:00 PM
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Chris Brantley Chris Brantley is offline
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I'm not sure this makes sense to me. An element "barkering" a BUA is basically investing it, or at least a portion of it. An element inside the BUA that wants to sally out wouldn't march out backwards, they'd open the gate and attack head on, or exit via a rear gate to attack the investor in the flank. Why should a sally be treated as a movement to the rear?

In the case where the sallier (is that a word?) wants to attack the barkering element, but the barkering element is too close to the BUA, then I would suggest deploying the sallying element with its rear edge adjacent to the edge of the BUA, and pushing back the barkering element the distance required to allow placement of the sallying element.
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Old 06-20-2004, 06:22 PM
David Kuijt
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob.:

I would make a first stab at this situation by saying the element in the BUA within a BWD of enemy, can exit from any point around the BUA but only as a move to its rear, thus ends facing the BUA and cannot move other than straight to its rear unless allowed multiple moves.
That doesn't work at all, Bob. Your interp would make it impossible for an element inside a BUA to move so as to attack the element ZOCing it. For example, you have a 4Sp attacking my BUA with my 4Wb garrisoning it. You lose and recoil on your bound (I get no QK because I'm a garrison). On my bound I want to sally and attack. Seems perfectly reasonable, if I have the pips (2 pips to move from a BUA). But by your interpretation, there is no way to attack the element that is ZOCing me.
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  #5  
Old 06-20-2004, 06:41 PM
Redwilde
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Quote:
Originally posted by dicemanrick:
(I'm a charter member of the BUA Delenda Est club...so no comments, please!).
Ah, I don't recall seeing you at the organising meeting, but it was pretty crowded. I suppose BUA, BUAE (genitive) would be a feminine noun and take delenda.

Bob's interp does make more complications when you factor in the numbers of attackers and extra zocers a BUA can have.

The second simplest interp is to say BUAE (nominative plural) ignore the efffects of ZOCing and a garrison can leave anytime it wants to.

The simplest and preferred mehtod of course is just to smack the abomination with a hammer

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BUA Delenda Est.
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Old 06-20-2004, 11:53 PM
xeswop
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The garrison can always sally forth to attack the investing element just as an element within a Base Width Distance can attack any element whose BWD it is in. Movement out of BUA is independent of gates. The question is how do BUA element within the BWD of an enemy GET AWAY, if it wants to.

Good suggestion for the sally move, or allow the exit from next to the enemy and a flank attack.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
I'm not sure this makes sense to me. An element "barkering" a BUA is basically investing it, or at least a portion of it. An element inside the BUA that wants to sally out wouldn't march out backwards, they'd open the gate and attack head on, or exit via a rear gate to attack the investor in the flank. Why should a sally be treated as a movement to the rear?

In the case where the sallier (is that a word?) wants to attack the barkering element, but the barkering element is too close to the BUA, then I would suggest deploying the sallying element with its rear edge adjacent to the edge of the BUA, and pushing back the barkering element the distance required to allow placement of the sallying element.
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  #7  
Old 06-20-2004, 11:58 PM
xeswop
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I read the question as one having to do with how an element in a BUA can exit if any enemy are within a base width distance. There is no problem with the interal element attacking the outside element.

1. Enemy element is within a base width distance of a a BUA. How does the interal element get out of the BUA, if not to attack?

2. Enemy element is in contact with BUA, how can the internal element break off?

These are the questions I addressed, not how the internal element can attack the external element.

Quote:
Originally posted by David Kuijt:
That doesn't work at all, Bob. Your interp would make it impossible for an element inside a BUA to move so as to attack the element ZOCing it. For example, you have a 4Sp attacking my BUA with my 4Wb garrisoning it. You lose and recoil on your bound (I get no QK because I'm a garrison). On my bound I want to sally and attack. Seems perfectly reasonable, if I have the pips (2 pips to move from a BUA). But by your interpretation, there is no way to attack the element that is ZOCing me. [/QUOTE]
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2004, 02:53 AM
dicemanrick
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Again I think this shows why BUAs don't belong in DBA

Look at this ludicrous example: An aux stand garrisons a BUA. I put a blade opposite the BUA. The aux on it's turn comes out of the BUA to the left or right of the blade and then attacks the flank of the blade!

Sally ports indeed...more like TELEPORTS!!
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2004, 03:24 PM
xeswop
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Rich,
I agree fully with your first statement!

But if there were an Ax in a BUA vs a Bd on the outside, I have to wonder why the Ax gives up +3 defensive factor to fight the Bd in the open??? +3 vs +5 or +6 vs +5. But yes a Destroy if Beaten if the Ax loses in the BUA.

I wondered why any element would ever sally out to fight external enemy. All I can think of is to attack an Art or maybe a Bw who is just outside, shooting at the BUA.
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  #10  
Old 06-22-2004, 01:51 AM
dicemanrick
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Bob: consider this if I manage to roll enough pippage....

Ax exits the BUA 'around corner' and then attacks flank of attacking element. Bd enters BUA passing through to attack front. Crunch.

Or Ax defending BUA against spear, suffers tie. Ax breaks off and exits, replaced by nearby blade (and effectively taking place in line). The question is, does the Barker apply, and where is the rear?
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