Can an Echeloned Group Wheel?

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

The rules don't say.

However, after some thought, I believe the least damage to our sensibilities (and the fewest bizarrities) occurs when that sort of group wheels on the notional front corner.

To illustrate what I mean, consider an L-shaped group -- a short column preceding a line. Say one element of pike ahead of a line of 8 pike, looking like this:

Pike
PikePikePikePikePikePikePikePike

Now the front pike is on the far left.

If you wheel this group to the right on the notional (absent) front corner, the movement seems entirely normal -- every element moves forward some and wheels some and nobody is going to punch you.

If you wheel the group to the right on the actual right front corner of the forward element, however, strangeness occurs. The two pikes on the far left move normally. Every pike to the right of them moves BACKWARD, and the far right element (the one that will move the farthest) moves almost straight backward the limit of his movement. So basically you've found a way to move a group backward, and if you try this in a game with a belligerent stranger, you're going to get bopped in the nose.

I do believe the rules clearly state (my copy is not at hand) is that a wheeling group may never have any element make a BACKWARD move to conform to the wheel. So it's not just an issue of a "bloody nose", it is an illegal move. IIRC.

Originally Posted by Kontos

I do believe the rules clearly state (my copy is not at hand) is that a wheeling group may never have any element make a BACKWARD move to conform to the wheel. So it's not just an issue of a "bloody nose", it is an illegal move. IIRC.

Actually, not. You're completely correct in what the 'sense' of the rules is, but the wording is as follows: (p8, 2nd paragraph from the bottom, second-last sentence)

[...] a group can only move straight ahead or wheel by pivoting around a front corner.

So there is no prohibition against a backwards move -- it just says that the only two moves allowed (beyond some exceptions described earlier in the paragraph) are a straight-forward move or a wheel around a front corner.

What defines a front corner of a concave group is not described.

So if the front corner is the rightmost corner on the farthest front line, then the bizarre backwards wheel I mentioned is not illegal by the rules. But it is clearly an unusual result unthought-of by the Author, plus being dorky.

I think the best solution is to use the notional corner as if an element was there, making sure the the formation remains intact and that no element exceeds their movement allowance.

That still makes for some 'interesting moves' in deep groups, that I think even modern drilled troops would be challenged to pull off some of the wheel and others moves we make on the table in games.

The group rules work, but they start to push against reality IMO when you start to look at deep groups or wheeling single columns etc. For example wheeling a 1 wide, 2 deep group is allowable and much easier on the table than it would ever be in real life.

I suspect this is why some authors/rules sets have specific limits around these types of moves. A large wheel is really reforming facing a different direction, which is what I see the flexibility of the element moves reflect in DBA. The scale of DBA allows this to be hidden in the asumptions.

However, this becomes much more aparent in DBR and other games where 4+ deep formations are encouraged and there are more figures in play.

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

Actually, not. You're completely correct in what the 'sense' of the rules is, but the wording is as follows: (p8, 2nd paragraph from the bottom, second-last sentence)


So there is no prohibition against a backwards move -- it just says that the only two moves allowed (beyond some exceptions described earlier in the paragraph) are a straight-forward move or a wheel around a front corner.

What defines a front corner of a concave group is not described.

So if the front corner is the rightmost corner on the farthest front line, then the bizarre backwards wheel I mentioned is not illegal by the rules. But it is clearly an unusual result unthought-of by the Author, plus being dorky.

So, David , you would allow a line to pivot backwards around a front corner?

Originally Posted by Bob. (and his dog)

So, David , you would allow a line to pivot backwards around a front corner?

Only if it was you, Bob. Why do you ask?

Having more of a DBM back ground and then going to DBA I've always played that you cannot move backwards as a group. Hence wheeling on the right corner of the forward pike would not be allowed ... and all of that sillyness goes away. Holy cheese bat man .... my line is about to be hit by kniggits ... I know I'll wheel them out of the way! ....hummmm ... guess what I'm trying in my next game!

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

The rules don't say.

However, after some thought, I believe the least damage to our sensibilities (and the fewest bizarrities) occurs when that sort of group wheels on the notional front corner.

To illustrate what I mean, consider an L-shaped group -- a short column preceding a line. Say one element of pike ahead of a line of 8 pike, looking like this:

Pike
PikePikePikePikePikePikePikePike

Now the front pike is on the far left.

If you wheel this group to the right on the notional (absent) front corner, the movement seems entirely normal -- every element moves forward some and wheels some and nobody is going to punch you.

If you wheel the group to the right on the actual right front corner of the forward element, however, strangeness occurs. The two pikes on the far left move normally. Every pike to the right of them moves BACKWARD, and the far right element (the one that will move the farthest) moves almost straight backward the limit of his movement. So basically you've found a way to move a group backward, and if you try this in a game with a belligerent stranger, you're going to get bopped in the nose.

Maybe I am just not seeing what you are seeing but the concept of pivoting around a notional point devoid of troops muddies the water. Using your example, a right pivot should be made using the actual right front corner of the extreme right element. It is, by definition, the front rank on that side of the group. No one moves backwards and all is right with the world. The same applies to the extreme left when wheeling left. Pivoting a line should be a slow battlefield maneuver when you consider maintaining formation integrity. If it were easy the linear tactics of Frederick the Great would not have been made antiquated by the Napoleonic French.

I also found my reference to not allowing an element to move backwards. It was in Tactical Movement in DBA 2.0 - An interpretation on the rules for moving elements Version 1.2 January 2002 While now defunct, it did clear up many issues for me as a new DBA player. Why it no longer applies is unclear to me. I found it helpful.

Now, let's have some fun at DBV Saturday!

Originally Posted by ggiles

Having more of a DBM back ground and then going to DBA I've always played that you cannot move backwards as a group. Hence wheeling on the right corner of the forward pike would not be allowed ... and all of that sillyness goes away. Holy cheese bat man .... my line is about to be hit by kniggits ... I know I'll wheel them out of the way! ....hummmm ... guess what I'm trying in my next game!

You cannot move backwards as a group. I described the bizarreness of wheeling on the right corner of the forward pike as a way to show why wheeling on that corner is bad -- because it allows you to move backwards as a group, which is wrong.

Originally Posted by Kontos

Maybe I am just not seeing what you are seeing but the concept of pivoting around a notional point devoid of troops muddies the water. Using your example, a right pivot should be made using the actual right front corner of the extreme right element. It is, by definition, the front rank on that side of the group. No one moves backwards and all is right with the world.

That doesn't work either. To illustrate, take a different L-shaped group made up of a long column (say 6 Chariots) with one blade to the side aligned with the absolute back:

LCh
LCh
LCh
LCh
LCh
LCh-Bd-

Now if we wheel right based on the right front corner of the Bd, you have discovered another illegal move method -- a way to move your whole column of Chariots sideways for a single pip.

So wheeling on the right corner of the frontmost element, as shown earlier, gives you the bizarre ability to move your whole line backwards. And wheeling on the front corner of the rightmost element, as you propose, gives you the bizarre ability to move your whole column sideways.

Whereas wheeling on the notional corner of the bounding rectangle enclosing the group avoids both those problems, and therefore is the best solution.

Luckily, this rarely comes up in play. See you Saturday!