Vikings sack Pisa! Tower presumed stolen.

Did indeed the Norse sack Pisa in the 9th C?

If so what army did they beat on to do so? Presuming one was inclined to game enthusiastic Danish sight-seers in Italy.

Which I might be.

-S

Originally Posted by Spanikopites

Did indeed the Norse sack Pisa in the 9th C?

If so what army did they beat on to do so?

Which time? 802, or 859? Either way, there was probably no battle in DBA terms. If the local lords had managed to get their troops together to resist, they could plausibly be Carolingian Frankish or Italian Lombard. (Italian Lombard doesn't appear on the enemy's list of the Vikings, but I don't know the locations of their forces during the 9th century, so I don't know if that is an omission or correct).

859 it is said.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/046.php

Local militia I guess. Whose kingdom was it in those days?

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

Which time? 802, or 859? Either way, there was probably no battle in DBA terms. If the local lords had managed to get their troops together to resist, they could plausibly be Carolingian Frankish or Italian Lombard. (Italian Lombard doesn't appear on the enemy's list of the Vikings, but I don't know the locations of their forces during the 9th century, so I don't know if that is an omission or correct).

According to Phil, Italian Lombard and Feudal Spanish do not occur as enemies of the vikings because the viking attacks on their lands were mere raids.

He did not answer why similar raids - indeed often by the very same forces - on the Andalusians do merit an inclusion on the enemies list.

Originally Posted by Spanikopites

Did indeed the Norse sack Pisa in the 9th C?

If so what army did they beat on to do so? Presuming one was inclined to game enthusiastic Danish sight-seers in Italy.

Which I might be.

-S

According to my Penguin Historical Atlas of the Vikings: "They [the Vikings] spent the winter of 859-60 on the island of Camargue, at the mouth of the Rhone, before ravaging upstream as far as Valence the following spring. But resistance was fierce, so the Vikings moved on to Italy, sacking Luna (believing it to be Rome) and sailing up the River Arno to sack Pisa and Fiesole."

In other words a typical "day out" for the axe-wielding hairy-arsed Northeners...

Dunc

Originally Posted by The Last Conformist

According to Phil, Italian Lombard and Feudal Spanish do not occur as enemies of the vikings because the viking attacks on their lands were mere raids.

He did not answer why similar raids - indeed often by the very same forces - on the Andalusians do merit an inclusion on the enemies list.

Probably cause the Lombards and Spanish didn't get an awesome cool movie made about Viking tourists in their lands.

As far as I am concerned, if members of respective civilizations exchanged hot words over a couple pints that should be considered adequate causus belli in DBA.



-S

Originally Posted by Spanikopites

Probably cause the Lombards and Spanish didn't get an awesome cool movie made about Viking tourists in their lands.

I agree 100% here. I have a sneaking suspicion that the actual point where Phil decided to include it was the scene where the vikings raided the harem!

But seriously, in my DBA army list for vikings, both the Spanish and the Italians are included! Seriously! I wrote them in

n.

Okay, seriously now, in situations like this shouldn't we take note of the anachronistic nature of our hobby? Certainly we aren't replaying specific battles everytime we sit down for a game. We are however replaying likely battles of a period.

I can understand how this might quickly balloon into an uncontrollable mess for an enemies list, but I think that there is an easy answer. If the army or army type was noted as fighting another army, then it should be included in the enemies list, scale aside. I am not sure how many other armies besides vikings that might be effected, however the vikings are a great example. The vikings did raid Christian Spain, and they did sack Pisa and Luna, and it was an army that sacked Luna, not a small raiding force.

So that's my not-so-nonsensical two cents

n.

I could write a thesis on the inconsistencies of the DBA enemy lists. I won't though. I'll just write a long rambling rant on the internet instead.

The Spanish and Italians are excluded from the Norse enemy list due to the small magnitude of the conflicts. Yet the someplace down the line, the Norse and the Skraelings* fight a knock-down drag-out the equal of Ashdown or Brunaburgh qualifying them as major league legit enemies. Hmmm.

There one reason I suggest that we don't blindly include Italian Lombards on the Viking list** for the burning and sacking of quaint Italian seaside towns.
They may not have done it. I came across some references (not quoted here cause I can't find them right now) that most the raiding of Italy was done by Saracenic pirates operating in the south of France.

One of the writers goes so far as to suggest that the beset locals really couldn't tell one non-Christian raider from the other. The Vikings having greater brand recognition in the littoral havoc department get the credit. That's an dubious conclusion.

I know 9C Pisanos didn't have Google or Wikipedia, but surely they could distinguish between the two.

I suggest the alternate... (flips on the Way-Back Machine)

The Duke of Lombardy has just heard the news that Saracen pirates have looted Pisa. He frowns, hums and haws and then addresses his advisors, warlords and clergy.

'This is ill timed. I have some delicate negotiations coming up with the Emir. I hope to attain a treaty and some fat trade contracts. Anti-Saracen sentiment in the Duchy could complicate this.'

One of his advisors leans in, 'Lordship, we can blame the Vikings'.***

The Duke brightens up, 'Yeah! Those guys are jerks. You, monkish chronicler over there! Cross out the word Saracen and replace it with Norseman. And back date it couple years as well.'

And that Sherman is why the Vikings**** got blamed for sacking Pisa.

-S


* Don't even get me started on the Eastern Woodland Indian enemy list. The Welsh? That's first order pseudo-history. Even Wikipedia discounts it. Might as well include the Ming Chinese.

** No, it's not because facing Kn with Bd sucks.

*** Which incidentally references THE funniest Blackadder III episode EVER.

****Still very cool, despite over-exposure and poorly made movies
starring Eomer.

(edit-make speling and grammur goodr)

Bah I say! I mean, we swear that only the Brits used Woad because of one line in Ceasar's journal, so I say yea! The Vikings would have kicked the snot out of their distant Lombardian relations >

n.