Query about Naismith 15mm Samurai

OK, I'm a Samurai neophyte. Does the range of Naismith 15mm Samurai best fit the DBA "Early Samurai" (III/54), "Post-Mongol Samurai" (IV/59ab), both of them, or none of the above???

As I try to make sense of my yoroi from my yari I thought I would enlist the help of "K. H. Ranitzsch" or others here who may be familiar with Naismith's range of 15mm Samurai.

I recently acquired a good-sized pile of Samurai for a song. (1 or more packs of most of the Samurai packs Naismith makes - see http://www.flintloque.com/acatalog/A...MURAI_127.html

I'm doing my best to match these up to the pics in the various Osprey books, but thought I would ask if someone knows off-hand into which range they best fit. Thanks!

(Presumably, the types with firearms are best earmarked for some future DBR project.) I'll be splitting these figures up with fellow Fanaticus, "Stelzone". I'm hoping they will fit both DBA Samurai armies, and we can each have figures for "ES" and/or "PMS". Thanks!

//Paul-san in Seattle

[ May 03, 2003, 08:58: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

Hi Paul,

I once contacted Australian Peter Stone, a samurai buff and owner of a big DBM Early Samurai army (mostly Minifigs), about these Naismith samurai, asking the same question. I didn't save the e-mail he sent back, or I would forward it to you - but at the time (about a year ago) I did go back and look at the pictures on the Flintloque site and compare them to what he said about them. The range is most suitable for 16th century (DBR), but a few of the figures could be used for earlier samurai armies - he pointed out which ones code-by-code, which gave me a basis for judgement. As I recall, some of the armored samurai figures - the ones with swords, bows, naginata, including the mounted ones - were usable for earlier armies. The commanders have the wrong (ie, later) helmet type. None of the ashigaru or peasants were suitable for earlier armies. The mounted monks are all right for earlier armies. Obviously, anybody with a musket is a DBR-period figure, as you point out!

That's about all that sticks out in my memory, but it is accurate as far as it goes.

Eric

[ May 03, 2003, 16:45: Message edited by: Ares ]

Originally posted by Ares:
The [Naismith] range is most suitable for 16th century (DBR), but a few of the figures could be used for earlier Samurai armies...

Sorry to dredge up this old post, Eric, but could I politely ask you how you're defining "earlier"? --Earlier than DBR, of course, suggests that they would, at least, work for the DBA IV/59b Post-Mongol Samurai, AD 1465-1542, army. But perhaps you meant some of the other, previous Samurai armies too?

Over the past year, I have acquired quite a stash of second-hand, mostly unpainted, 15mm Samurai figures. They're a wild n'wooly mix of Naismith, Minifigs, Two Dragons and Mikes Models.

Here's my dilemma: I want to sort these figures into several DBA Samurai armies, but I'm really out of my element in making sense of Ashigaru, Samurai, Ikko Ikki fanatics, warrior monks, etc., as they evolved over the Centuries. I've read some of the relevant Osprey titles, but I'm still confused. :confused:

Perhaps someone here who is familiar with one or more of these figure-lines can offer some tips to help me in this sorting process. For example, one range might best fit Early Samurai III/54 range, while another fits the PM Samurai range, etc.

I should be able to carve several DBA armies out of these figures. I will freely share them (well, except for the Mikes Models, which, as folks here know, I horde ) with one or more of you who can spoon-feed me the info I need to sort them accurately. Thanks!

[ October 17, 2003, 07:30: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

I just happened to log in and see this...

I guess I can sum up what I've learned in researching the samurai for a potential DBA army (before I discovered the "Bushi" ruleset):

As to the various ranges, I remember that Peter Stone emphatically recommended Minifigs samurai for Early Samurai (III/54), based on the armor. HOWEVER... according to my skimmings of Stephen Turnbull, the earlier, boxier armor style continued to be manufactured well into the period of the Post-Mongol list (IV/59), so I would say that if you wind up with any spare Minifig samurai, you could squeeze them into at least the IV/59a sublist, if you built such an army.

Two Dragons, I have heard, are intended for the Sengoku Jidai period of the 16th century, which straddles the IV/59b list and the DBR list. But as long as they are not carrying firearms, you could conceivably stretch them back to the IV/59a list, but no earlier. I believe Two Dragons are fitted with sashimono back banners - I usually associated these with 16th century armies, but they first appeared in the later 15th century.

Regarding Naismith, I really wish I had that Peter Stone e-mail, because he noted which specific codes were usable for Early Samurai (note I say "usable", not "totally accurate or appropriate [img]smile.gif[/img] ). In general, any figures equipped with the wide conical hat or the long "yari" spear are more appropriate for later armies, probably much later (say, after the mid-15th century... but that's off the top of my head, and that goes for any figure range, not just Naismith).

Can't tell you a thing about Mike's Models.

Warrior monks, whether of the shaved-head or cowled-and-robed variety, are pretty much the same throughout the entire period we are discussing (10th-16th century). They did form their own armies, but the DBM samurai lists only allow them as allies. I don't believe any DBA army allows for warrior monks - they don't have their own list, and owing to their volatile nature they could probably only be classed as allies rather than sub-generals, which DBA doesn't have. However, I don't see why you couldn't build a later-period (IV/59) with a monk general, and use monks for the Blades (which is what monks are in the DBM list).

Ikko-ikki were urban and peasant mobs, so any armed peasant figures you have are a shoo-in for Horde or Warband elements in the IV/59 list. Rogue samurai and monks often threw their lot in with ikko-ikki. Such mobs appeared every so often during the period covered by the IV/59 list, but there was one really big revolt, which I believe was in the 15th century...

Ashigaru - these changed a bit over the years. Any figures you have with the small-cap-tied-with-a-ribbon headgear and armed with naginata could be either III/54 (as Ax) or IV/59a (as Ax). Any figures with the long "yari" spear and the conical headgear are IV/59b (as Sp).

Any samurai could mostly pass for either period, unless they have the "tall" helmet, which is definitely later period, maybe 16th/early 17th century. Again, the long spear is only appropriate for the later period.

When I first began looking into samurai armies, I started a thread on the Yahoo DBM list. In closing, here is a quote from one of the replies which I will pass on as one last tidbit that might help you in deciding "which figures to put where":

"The transition period from early to later samurai was the civil wars of 1333-1358. It [was] during this period that mounted samurai lost their dominance on the battlefield to cheaper mass units of poorly trained infantry. Samurai armor went from being heavy & bulky (only suitable for mounted combat) to lighter, more protective styles better suited to fighting on foot."

Something to ponder while perusing the DBA lists. I am by no means an expert on this subject, and am open to dispute and correction! Hope this helps.

Eric

PS If you don't have the DBM army list books, and would like to have the breakdown/translation of DBM-to-DBA elements for each samurai list (III/54 and IV/59), I can provide those.

[ October 17, 2003, 13:50: Message edited by: Ares ]

Aw, heck, I'll throw it in:

III/54 Early Samurai 900-1300:

1x3Cv or 4Bw - General, with bow/sword, mounted or dismounted, with bodyguard or standard.

3x3Cv - mounted samurai with bow and/or sword.

3x3Bw or 3Bd - dismounted samurai with bow in heavy armor (3Bw) or with naginata/sword in lighter armor (3Bd).

5x3Ax - retainers in earlier-style headgear with naginata (maybe with a few bow-armed figures mixed in)

IV/59a Post-Mongol Samurai 1300-1464:

1x3Cv or 4Bd - General, mounted with bow and sword or dismounted with naginata/sword/yari

1x3Cv - same as above (though you could also use naginata- or yari-armed mounted samurai)

6x4Bd - more foot samurai with yari/sword/naginata (some elements could conceivably be warrior monks with same weapons, though not allowed for in the DBM list, in this context)

3x3Ax - followers with naginata

1x3Bw - followers with bow

IV/59b 1465-1542:

1x3Cv or 4Bd, 1x3Cv, 5x4Bd - same as (a) list

1x3Sp - Ashigaru with yari

4x5Wb - Ikko-ikki mob
OR
4x7Hd - town militia
OR
4x3Sp - more ashigaru with yari

[ October 17, 2003, 14:17: Message edited by: Ares ]

Thanks, Eric. I think that will all be very helpful. I think I can identify which types have the (Early Samurai) "oroyoi" armor and the lighter armor of the later, P-M Samurai.

I look to spend some time this rainy weekend with my DBA and DBM lists, Osprey books, and your many fine comments, sorting thru all these figures. --I'll contact you afterwards, offlist, to get details on where to send you the figures for a Samurai army, if interested. Again, many, many thanks.

[ October 17, 2003, 14:20: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

I would be glad to take some off your hands. Samurai were at one point high up on my list, before I got preoccupied with Byzantines and later medievals - sams are on the back burner now (but still on the stove [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Glad to be of help. I wasn't fishing for figures with all that info, really... I just enjoy any opportunity to look knowledgeable.

Eric

[ October 19, 2003, 16:16: Message edited by: Ares ]

Eric ("Ares"), remember this old thread? I'm back at you (or other Samurai cognoscenti) with one more question. There's one MM Samurai figure I have in my stash of second-hand Samurai that I can't identify.

This chap is probably some-sorta late, Post-Mongol (or maybe Renaissance-era?) Samurai type. Over his close-fitting armor, he sports an open, sleeveless, caftan (short coat), and a big "conehead" style hat. In his right hand is a short sword. Any guesses as to what this figure is supposed to be? And, what element-type of which DBA Samurai army (if any) does he fit?

[ January 25, 2005, 07:47: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

It's not Kato Kiyomasa is it?

The coat certainly sounds like a Jinbaori (surcoat) and his hat could be the daft pointed thing that Kato wore; late 1500s...

Simon

I think Simon might be right. In any case, the fellow is clearly an officer from the 16th century.