DBA in Dark Age Britain is too specific

[Cremorn]

The recent announced change from Pict 3Sp to 3Aux gets me wondering...again...

Dark Ages Britain is a real hinge point for a lot of fighting styles.

Anglo-Saxon is Sp, though Old Saxon is Wb (and carries on that way until 800 or so). So presumably Saxons in Britain are exposed to ... Sub-Roman British? Sp and adopt the style. But Medieval Welsh never change to Spear, even though they are among (or actually are?) SRB until SRB drift away from the South and become Strathclyde or Northumbria or whatever. Goodness knows why Sub-Roman British decided to fight close order with spears in the first place (its not from the Romans or the Germans or the other Celts)

In DBA 1.1 Picts were Wb or Aux, and SRB were Aux (is the 2.2 (a) list still Aux?). With them fighting Scots-Irish as Aux it all made a kind of sense.

So when I'm putting together playsets of Saxon vs Scots-Irish vs Pict vs Sub Roman British vs Welsh vs God help me Viking, and they are all fighting in different ways, well...

I like the variations in flavour a lot, but I wonder if DBA is suffering from a relatively slight credibility threshhold?

Have to dust off Glutter of Ravens again,
Richard.

[Cremorn]

I see Mersey has another set of rules coming out in August:

http://www.amazon.com/Dux-Bellorum-A.../dp/184908680X

[Lewchips]

I'm looking forward to this and have a copy on pre-order with the Book Depository.

Even though I own a copy of 'Glutter of Ravens', I never did play a game. I just stuck with DBA

There's a recent battle report on the authors Blog:
http://boardgamegeek.com/blog/444/dux-blogorum

There's also some notes on army composition in past entries.

Cheers,

Barry

[Xavi]

Sub-roman brits come through a number of fighting styles. They tend to have 3-4 mounted and then (a) Ax (b) Ax/Wb (c) Sp (d) Sp. (c) list includes the Kn general to represent Arthur if you want to.

All the troops you mentioned (Ax, Wb, Sp... even Bd) have strengths and weaknesses against the others. Ax > Wb if they have Ps support (and are screwed if the Wb have high PIPs, something uncommon for the period). Wb > Sp quite commonly. Sp > Ax in the open.... etc etc. There are nice trade offs here

Don't know what is exactly your problem with the lists, but from a purely mechanics point of view they interact nicely. DBA has bnever been a very reliable source for how armies fight anyway, so that is not a major issue. Vikings should be Sp with some Bd anyway, and the difference between the different troop typoes is... curous at best. THat does not mean that it does not make for a cool game.

About the Sp+shield issue, well it is a fairly common change when you evolve from professional to levy-based armies. Cheap and easy to use (bundle up and poke the enemy!) is a prime when you have a bunch of rabble forming your battle line.

[Cremorn]

Originally Posted by Xavi

Don't know what is exactly your problem with the lists,.

I'm not sure either :-)
It's crazy to accuse a set of rules covering 4,500 years of being too specific! I guess something about everybody forming up so differently from each other affects my idea of period 'feel'. I need an excuse to make another SRB army, so I will make an Aux one I think. I am painting Splintered Light Scots/Irish, so maybe I will just go ahead and make an army from all their ranges.

Your explanation of the evolution to levy/Spear makes sense to me.

Thanks,
Richard

[Adrian Bryan]

Well Cremorn I for one will be leaving my Picts as Sp! I already have three Ax army's and don't real'y want another lol :-)

[Redwilde]

With the 3Sp option in 2.2+, I'll be much more willing to consider doing Dark Age armies now. Gah, more lead to buy!

Since I already have an armload of Punic War spear armies, I would look at the Dark Age lists and cringe. I've already painted so many spears in hoplite suits that it seemed incredibly redundant to start painting more of the same in dark-age suits

[Pavane]

Originally Posted by Redwilde

With the 3Sp option in 2.2+, I'll be much more willing to consider doing Dark Age armies now. Gah, more lead to buy!

Since I already have an armload of Punic War spear armies, I would look at the Dark Age lists and cringe. I've already painted so many spears in hoplite suits that it seemed incredibly redundant to start painting more of the same in dark-age suits

I am the same but opposite situation. I have lots of Dark Age armies. Now that 2.2+ has added some variety with Light Spear I have been motivated to begin painting a Greek hoplite army what will be expanded to include Syracusan.

[Ammianus]

Cremorn,
looks like you have a plethora of options, the last V3.0 list I saw had the Picts as SP while the "Taste" from Phil that we saw on 15 JAN said AX. DBA 2.2+ gives you the 3SP option. And now it seems that Phil is giving SP "Flank Support" in the next draft of 3.0 (while removing everyone's rear support)
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An element of Spears or Bows adds +1 when in frontal close combat in good going against enemy foot if at least 1 flank edge is in mutual side edge and front corner contact with a friendly element of the same type or of Blades.
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The of course you could just play historical HotT like many of us, classify troops as you think best (Irish, Welsh WBs etc) and field SP that use rear suppport just like WBs.

I recommend that whatever you do you take a lok at Steve's thoughts on this issue:
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/dbx/br...a600/index.htm

Finally, I concur with your comment RE the sometimes arcane or nebulous characterization of DBA armies; shouldn't the Vikings have some SP?
Germanic foot armies could include Blade elements for the king's comitatus. Could an Irish guy ride a horse? I'm sure we all have an issue here and their wth our pet armies!

[lkmjbc]

I think we need to remember that Phil is basing most troop types on psychology.

What was the real difference between Dark Age Vikings and Saxons? Besides hair color?

Really, it was just what was between the ears. Really Sp, Bd, and Ax (and now Rd, Lt Sp) all were armed and armored about the same. We differentiate them by how we think they saw themselves.

Is there really any difference between Roman Aux and Roman Bd. Besides one had a rounder shield... not bloody much.

So, the difference is what is between both ears.

Joe Collins