No Elephants for the Romans? - Cynocephalae

[C. Popilius Snoopi]

I was looking through the sample lists for book 2, and don't see any elephants for the Romans.

IIRC, Flaminius had about 20 of them when he beat the Macedonians at Cynocephalae, so I was hoping to see an option for that.

Barring such, has anyone worked out a house alternative for that battle which would incude the Polybian Pachyderms?

[larryessick]

Indeed, it does appear that at Cynoscephalae the Romans employed elephants during the battle. The number seems high enough and the effect on the Macedonian army sufficiently large that 1 element should be permitted.

Note, however, that this battle should not be used to discuss legion v phalanx except in terms of efficiency in terrain. The Roman legion was more adapt in the terrain and the phalanx much less so.

If anything, it is reasonable evidence that Roman Bd, at least, should not be hindered by rough going. Not coincidentally, this mirrors my own observations of troops we class Bd in the DBx system -- that they are either not or only minimally impacted by rough terrain. Indeed, in medieval examples such as Vikings or Swiss the Bd are quite at home in rough (and even difficult) terrain.

Nonetheless, pertaining to your question, there is no question that 1 El should probably be allowed to the Republican Romans.

That it is not in the list is probably a Democratic ploy symbolic of US political bickering....

Although, I do find it amusing that the symbol of the Republican party is an elephant....

The question is, are you fielding Lincoln or Reagan as your general?

[Xavi]

....Or that roman legions should be considered Ax. Or that they are OK as they are since they are a 3 in BGo and the Pk is a 1. The more I think about it, the more I come to believe that Ax would be a good classification for the legions and that we can get rid of the Pk element altogether and substitute them for dudes with large sticks (aka spears).

Cheers,
Xavi

[David Constable]

The Romans did field allies with their armies on occasions.
It might be nice to have a basic seven (7) Romans plus a list of five (5) extras, this would give an all Roman army or Romans with elephant allies (or others).

This army is one of the few when you really need thirteen elements for preference. You could then deploy mirror image, infantry centre, one cavalry on each wing, with a cavalry general behind the centre or Roman Legion on the left.

David Constable

[Richard Lee]

Don't think that pike (in v2.2 - don't know about v3.0 yet) get rear support in bad going. That means that although legionaries (blade) fight at 3 versus foot the pike fight at 1. That seems to be quite reasonable to me.

[Redwilde]

I've long used a house rule that any 1 element from the DBM lists that isn't included in DBA can be swapped in. We usually use this for tar-daubed flaming pigs, flaming ox carts, hmmm -- an elephant would be a good choice, even if it's not flaming

[Rich Gause]

Originally Posted by Xavi

....Or that roman legions should be considered Ax. Or that they are OK as they are since they are a 3 in BGo and the Pk is a 1. The more I think about it, the more I come to believe that Ax would be a good classification for the legions and that we can get rid of the Pk element altogether and substitute them for dudes with large sticks (aka spears).

Cheers,
Xavi

I was thinking the same thing after reading the last slingshot articles on how the manipular legions fought the phalanx. Maybe they should be Bd(f) if not Ax?

[C. Popilius Snoopi]

Originally Posted by larryessick

Nonetheless, pertaining to your question, there is no question that 1 El should probably be allowed to the Republican Romans.

That it is not in the list is probably a Democratic ploy symbolic of US political bickering....

LOL!

You know, I may have to prepare an Athenian army (Democratic) to put up against the Polybians (Republicans) for next November as an event at the local game shop.

Alternately, two Marian forces. There are lots of things in America now that remind me of the 1st c. BC. What would Augustus do?

[C. Popilius Snoopi]

Great comments all around, folks!

In this situation, I think the Romans probably make the best of the BGo...their move is identical in bad and good, and they wind up significantly better than the phalagites.

IIRC, Hannibal made it into Italy w/ 20 Elephants...the same number Flaminius is reported to have had at Cynocephalae. I don't know that I'd want to have elephants as a standard feature in Roman armies as an every day thing, but for a matched pair of opponenets, I'd definitely build the option.

Redwilde, I like your idea. I may have to go find my DBM army list. Flaming pigs sound amusing! How are they classified?

[Redwilde]

Originally Posted by C. Popilius Snoopi

Redwilde, I like your idea. I may have to go find my DBM army list. Flaming pigs sound amusing! How are they classified?

In the final DBM the pigs were classed as artillery. I'm not sure how many volleys of pigs were typical field allocation, so I tend to treat them and the Spanish flaming ox-wagons as Expendables = SCh.