Question About DBA 3.0

[BigMadAl]

I know this can only be answered by those who have playtested. For those people: I'm not asking for specifics, which I know you can't give anyway.

I only have one small question: Does what you've seen of DBA 3.0 contain a lot of rule changes? Or, is it mostly clarification & list updates?

I envision this to be a yea-or-nay answer. Thank you, in advance.

[David Constable]

Originally Posted by BigMadAl

I know this can only be answered by those who have playtested. For those people: I'm not asking for specifics, which I know you can't give anyway.

I only have one small question: Does what you've seen of DBA 3.0 contain a lot of rule changes? Or, is it mostly clarification & list updates?

I envision this to be a yea-or-nay answer. Thank you, in advance.

A lot is relative, however I suspect that there will be a lot of changes, not just clarifications, this will result in play balance changing.

It will be a new set of rules in effect.

The big unknown is bases at the moment.

David Constable

[david kuijt]

Originally Posted by David Constable

The big unknown is bases at the moment.

???

The big unknown is movement distances, conforming, ZOC, shooting, terrain, edge of the world rules, and a partridge in a pear tree. Bases are WAY down the list as far as I'm concerned.

[BigMadAl]

Thank you, gentlemen, that answers the question nicely, & I'll now move on to chewing my fingernails until the new rules are released.

[Martyn]

Originally Posted by david kuijt

???

The big unknown is movement distances, conforming, ZOC, shooting, terrain, edge of the world rules, and a partridge in a pear tree. Bases are WAY down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Glad to see that there are not too many changes.

I suppose this means that the previously identified time scale is unlikely to be met.

[Rich Gause]

Originally Posted by david kuijt

???

The big unknown is movement distances, conforming, ZOC, shooting, terrain, edge of the world rules, and a partridge in a pear tree. Bases are WAY down the list as far as I'm concerned.

I have been skimming through my recently purchased set of the DBMM rules lately. My initial impression is that it is a very different game than DBA and not something I would be very interested in; hypercomplex and nitpicky. As far as importing mechanics goes I think the conforming rules could definitely improve DBA, maybe not the exact rules but the idea that individual elements or 1 element wide column groups conform to the moving group in general I think is a good one. The idea that a ZOC or threat zone should not be blocked by an intervening element may work fine in DBMM where you usually deploy in more than one rank because of bonuses and the fact that you have lots more elements but in a 12 element game where most units have no bonus for a two rank deployment? Sounds like a recipe to make the first element killed a more decisive advantage as preventing flank roll ups from holes in your line becomes much more difficult as your second rank will now be ZOC'd... Mights as well not bother with a reserve at all. We have already discussed the more limited maneuver consequence of drastically increasing the relative speed of heavy foot, its good if you want to make the game a beginner game for DBMM with the same move rates and decreasing the affect of skill on the game, otherwise not. The DBMM shooting mechanics are more restrictive on who you can shoot at and are more difficult to implement. The current mechanics(the ones out of the Unofficial guide anyway) are chrystal clear and easy to implement as they only involve measuring from corner to corner instead of basing stuff on half elements. Not so sure if the greater number of shooters in a DBMM game is what makes less freedom of where to shoot desirable for them but I think it is a negative for DBA, it would become much easier to dictate that enemy bow shoot at your blade for example than something more vulnerable. Don't have an opinion yet on terrain and edge of the world rules. Compared to the apparent direction of making DBA 3.0, insofar as I can surmise, into a beginners/entry game for DBMM I would agree that bases are such a small thing especially since we have already been told that current DBA/DBMM bases will be grandfathered in to whatever the new system is.

[Martyn]

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

I have been skimming through my recently purchased set of the DBMM rules lately. My initial impression is that it is a very different game than DBA and not something I would be very interested in; hypercomplex and nitpicky. As far as importing mechanics goes I think the conforming rules could definitely improve DBA, maybe not the exact rules but the idea that individual elements or 1 element wide column groups conform to the moving group in general I think is a good one.

I thought that this is the same as DBM, it wasn’t introduced from DBM into DBA so it may not from DBMM.

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

The idea that a ZOC or threat zone should not be blocked by an intervening element may work fine in DBMM where you usually deploy in more than one rank because of bonuses and the fact that you have lots more elements but in a 12 element game where most units have no bonus for a two rank deployment? Sounds like a recipe to make the first element killed a more decisive advantage as preventing flank roll ups from holes in your line becomes much more difficult as your second rank will now be ZOC'd... Mights as well not bother with a reserve at all.

I’m not sure I agree with the analysis but agree with the sentiment, I would prefer to keep blocking ZOCs

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

We have already discussed the more limited maneuver consequence of drastically increasing the relative speed of heavy foot, its good if you want to make the game a beginner game for DBMM with the same move rates and decreasing the affect of skill on the game, otherwise not.

It needs to be balanced by other changes if introduced. This is a classic example of us getting worked up about a suggestion of a change. Without knowing how other parts of the rules (board size, terrain size, shooting ranges, etc) may change we are not able to consider the full impact or otherwise.

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

The DBMM shooting mechanics are more restrictive on who you can shoot at and are more difficult to implement. The current mechanics(the ones out of the Unofficial guide anyway) are chrystal clear and easy to implement as they only involve measuring from corner to corner instead of basing stuff on half elements. Not so sure if the greater number of shooters in a DBMM game is what makes less freedom of where to shoot desirable for them but I think it is a negative for DBA, it would become much easier to dictate that enemy bow shoot at your blade for example than something more vulnerable.

They are similar to DBM in that generally you shoot at who ever is directly in front of the shooter, not so easy to gang up as in DBA. There are additional restrictions where part of a target is concealed which I like.

Originally Posted by Rich Gause

Don't have an opinion yet on terrain and edge of the world rules. Compared to the apparent direction of making DBA 3.0, insofar as I can surmise, into a beginners/entry game for DBMM I would agree that bases are such a small thing especially since we have already been told that current DBA/DBMM bases will be grandfathered in to whatever the new system is.

Considering the original differences between DBA and DBM I am doubtful that the DBMM mechanics will be imported wholesale.

[Rich Gause]

Originally Posted by Martyn

I thought that this is the same as DBM, it wasn’t introduced from DBM into DBA so it may not from DBMM.



I’m not sure I agree with the analysis but agree with the sentiment, I would prefer to keep blocking ZOCs



It needs to be balanced by other changes if introduced. This is a classic example of us getting worked up about a suggestion of a change. Without knowing how other parts of the rules (board size, terrain size, shooting ranges, etc) may change we are not able to consider the full impact or otherwise.

Yes, other changes could help determine how and how much much movement change rates affect DBA. When using an an artificial IGOUGO game mechanic(which you are almost forced to do to have a playable game) it can be tricky to balance how much happens a turn and exactly what affect it has. My initial impression looking at the movement rate changes in isolation because nobody knows what else will be changed is that heavy foot can move to much in a turn.

Originally Posted by Martyn

They are similar to DBM in that generally you shoot at who ever is directly in front of the shooter, not so easy to gang up as in DBA. There are additional restrictions where part of a target is concealed which I like.



Considering the original differences between DBA and DBM I am doubtful that the DBMM mechanics will be imported wholesale.

I hope you are right.

[Bobgnar]

Originally Posted by david kuijt

???

The big unknown is movement distances, conforming, ZOC, shooting, terrain, edge of the world rules, and a partridge in a pear tree. Bases are WAY down the list as far as I'm concerned.

I like David's alluding to the 12 Days of Christmas. Consider how many items your sweetheart gives to you by the 12th day. If you consider the changes and the changes to changes, there might be that many

To his specific list I would add deployment, PIP usage, groups, close combat, tactical factors and support and winning and losing and 12 Lords (or Elements) a leaping.

[David Constable]

Originally Posted by david kuijt

???

The big unknown is movement distances, conforming, ZOC, shooting, terrain, edge of the world rules, and a partridge in a pear tree. Bases are WAY down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Hello DK.

The problem with bases is that I was going to do armies with WWg, 8Bw, 6Cv and 6Kn next, now do I build them with temporary bases, and find I might have painted too many figures, hold painting anything, or what.

In fact for the rest of this year I am trying to hold off doing any painting, or buying (not successfully).

David Constable