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Old 02-10-2014, 09:24 AM
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Default Discussion of new Invasion and Maneuver Ratings

Invasion and Maneuver Ratings...
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:42 AM
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???????????????
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Dave is trying to get the people discussing the Invasion/Maneuver ratings in the Cold Wars thread to discuss it here instead.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david kuijt View Post
Dave is trying to get the people discussing the Invasion/Maneuver ratings in the Cold Wars thread to discuss it here instead.
Oh, OK.

Let me know when these will be available for public testing/consumption.

Of course, my local opponent has left for SE Asia for the next three weeks, so no hurry.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:21 AM
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Tea and Crumpets.....




Like Invasion and Maneuver Ratings, very tasty.
=^,^=
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Aguilar View Post
Let me know when these will be available for public testing/consumption.

Hey Tony, These are out for the Cold Wars big battle theme event and available if you would like to try them out. As mentioned in the previous discussions, they are draft values. Big Al is currently a 2 in our official draft, but still listed as a 3 here because the value has changed since the time this info went to the PEL. These are the values from the PEL:

I/6c. Early Bedouin – Invasion 3, Maneuver 0.
I/7cd. Early Libyan – Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
I/8bc. Makkan and Others – Invasion 1, Maneuver 0.
I/14e. Early North Europe Barbarians – Invasion 3, Maneuver 0.
I/35. Phoenician – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
I/36. Italian Hill Tribes – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
I/43a Skythian – Invasion 4, Maneuver 1.
I/43b. Skythian – Invasion 4, Maneuver 3 (if all mounted), otherwise 2.
I/47. Illyrian – Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
I/48. Thracian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
I/55d. Latin – Invasion 2, Maneuver 2.
I/55e. Umbrian Italian – Invasion 2, Maneuver 1.
I/56a. Kyrenean Greek – Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
I/56b. Kyrenean Greek – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
I/57b. Etruscan League – Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
I/58. Meroitic Kushiite – Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
I/61b. Early Carthaginian – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
I/62. Lykian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
I/63. Paionian – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
II/1. Republican Indian – Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
II/2. Mountain Indian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/3. Classical Indian – Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
II/5a. Later Hoplites – Spartan – Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
II/5b. Later Hoplites – Athens – Invasion 2, Maneuver 1.
II/5cdghi. Later Hoplites – Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
II/5e. Later Hoplites – Aitolian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/5f. Later Hoplites – Phokian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/6. Bithynian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/7. Later Achaemenid Persian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/8ac. Bruttian and Apulian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/8b. Campanian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/9. Syracusan – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3 (if 341-289BC), otherwise 2.
II/10. Camillan Roman – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
II/11. Gallic – Invasion 3 until 225BC, then 0, Maneuver 1.
II/12. Alexander Macedonian – Invasion 4, Maneuver 3.
II/13. Samnite – Invasion 1, Maneuver 4.
II/14. Ariarathid Kappadokian – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
II/15. Alexander Imperial – Invasion 4, Maneuver 3.
II/16a. Antigonos – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/16b. Demetrios – Invasion 2, Maneuver 4.
II/16c. Alketas – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/16d. Eumenes – Invasion 2, Maneuver 4.
II/17. Lysimachid – Invasion 2, Maneuver 2.
II/18a. Antipatros – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/18b. Polyperchon – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/18c. Kassandros – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/18d. Ptolemy Keraunos – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/18e. Antigonos Gonatas – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/19abcd. Seleucid – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/20ab. Ptolemaic – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/20c. Ptolemaic – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/20d. Ptolemaic – Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
II/22abcdef. Arabo-Aramaen – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2 (if Nabataea), otherwise 1.
II/23a. Pre-Islamic Arab – Nomads –Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
II/23b. Pre-Islamic Arab – City – Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
II/23c. Pre-Islamic Arab – Yemeni – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
II/24. Early Rhoxolani Sarmatian – Invasion 3, Maneuver 3.
II/25. Bosporan – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
II/26. Later Rhocolani Sarmatian – Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
II/27ab. Pyrrhic – Invasion 4, Maneuver 4.
II/28abcd. Early Armenian – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
II/30a. Galatian – Invasion 4, Maneuver 0.
II/30b. Galatian – Invasion 4, Maneuver 0 (if before 189BC), otherwise Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
II/30c. Galatian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 1.
II/31abfghij. Hellenistic Greek – Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
II/31de. Hellenistic Greek – Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.
II/31c. Hellenistic Greek – Invasion 3, Maneuver 1.
II/32. Later Carthage – Invasion 4 (if Hannibal) otherwise, Maneuver 4 (if Hannibal), otherwise 2.
II/33. Polybian Roman – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
II/34. Attalid Pergamene – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/35. Later Macedonian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/36a. Graeco Bactrian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/36b. Graeco Indian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/37. Parthian – Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/39abc. Ancient Spanish – Invasion 0, Maneuver 4.
II/40. Numidian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/43. Maccabean Jewish – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/44. Commagene – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/45ab. Italian and Sicilian Slave Revolts – Invasion 0, Maneuver 3.
II/45c. Spartacus Slave Revolt – Invasion 0, Maneuver 4.
II/46ab. Kushan – Invasion 2, Maneuver 2.
II/47de. Early German – Batavian or Cherusci -Invasion 2, Maneuver 3.
II/47abfg. Early German – Invasion 2, Maneuver 2.
II/48. Mithridatic – Invasion 3, Maneuver 2.
II/49. Marian Roman – Invasion 3, Maneuver 3.
II/50. Hasmonean Jewish – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
II/51. Late Judaean – Invasion 1, Maneuver 2.
II/52. Dacian – Invasion 1, Maneuver 3.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:59 PM
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I/56a. Kyrenean Greek Invasion 0, Maneuver 1.
I/56b. Kyrenean Greek Invasion 0, Maneuver 2.

My inclination would be to give the a. list the higher maneuver rating of the two.

The dismounting "LCh" in the a. list are in fact carts used to haul the heavier armed hoplites across Kyrenea to the battlefield where they dismounted. The hoplites did not fight from the carts.

When re-doing the army list, Kyrenea should not have any dismounting chariots, but the higher Maneuver Rating would be a good reflection of the infantry transports.

And they absolutely should not have littoral landing capability to send in landing craft with hoplites in halftracks to go all blitzkrieg on the enemy camp! (As entertaining as that may be )
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:27 PM
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Well David, if I understand what you are trying to do it seems like a cool idea for the tournament...

I mean it makes sense... the aggression factor of a particular faction/army has nothing to do with how good they were at pulling an enemy into battle on ground of their choosing or not..

Seems to me, the quality of the general was more important... like the line about Hannibal in your list.

Looking forward to seeing this in action!
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:20 PM
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Hey Mike,

Always glad to talk with you, but all the stuff you've brought up there is stuff that was considered at great length starting a year or so ago when we started discussing this issue. It's first principles stuff.

So it is new to you, but not to us. It's been considered. To save time and enormous effort on my part, why don't we just talk about this the next time we get together. I don't have the time to go back to first principles with you now in print -- in person is much faster.
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Last edited by david kuijt; 02-10-2014 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:58 PM
Kevin Boylan Kevin Boylan is offline
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Default Maneuver Ratings

Not having looked at this issue for some time, I'm not clear how Maneuver ratings are applied (for what purpose or purposes). Do they have anything to do with the issue of flank marches, or merely who's the attacker or defender on the table?
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