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Old 11-25-2015, 08:14 AM
Landru's Avatar
Landru Landru is offline
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Default Cataphract camel problem

Hi there, new member here with a question on the 2.2+ rules. There's a problem in 2.2+ with regards to cataphract camels being treated as cataphracts. What happens when cataphract camels fight ordinary 3Cm camels? The 3Cm camels must be doubled by cataphract camels, or they suffer a "no effect" outcome. Likewise, if the 3Cm beat the cataphract camels, the latter are destroyed, just like horse knights. Why would unarmored camels make armored camels flinch?

Suggestion: treat cataphract camels as ordinary 3Cm on combat outcomes, but give them a +1 tactical modifier vs LH, Cv, Kn, and SCh. Move at 4Kn speed, treat dunes and oases as good going.

I know Hatra is the only list with cataphract camels, but they can be Parthian allies, so they might get some use (I have a Parthian army).
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:44 AM
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david kuijt david kuijt is offline
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Yes, that is an ... imperfect interaction.

With that said, there is only one list with Cataphract Camels, and only one such element. And there are only 12-20 lists (out of 340+) with regular Camels. So the chance of this particular interaction happening in the random world of gaming is microscopic, and therefore the motivation for putting in a special rule to improve its accuracy is also very small.

The way it stands now, if Cataphracts fight regular Camels, there is a 25% chance that the regular Camels will die (4:2 need to double is 9/36) and a 16% chance that the Cataphracts will die (2:4 need to win is 6/36). That gives the advantage to the Cataphract Camels, which seems appropriate to their armor and increased training. Even though the description of activity that might be going on in such a combat is certainly likely to be quite different from how regular Camels might interact with horse-based Cataphracts, if you focus on the results the odds seem good enough (for such a rare interaction).

At this point I'm unaware of any existing description of an historical battle between Cataphract Camels and regular Camels. Until some such documentation arises, fussing about the details of a combat interaction that is entirely speculative seems counterproductive.

With that said, if you have a house rule that you like better, more power to you! You don't need anyone's permission to try something you think would improve the game.

V2.2+ final version playsheet available at:
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:57 AM
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David Schlanger David Schlanger is offline
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We are firm believers in the principle that the rules may be modified at the discretion of players, clubs, and tournament organizers.

So, we would encourage you to experiment with how better to represent that specific interaction!

Washington Grand Company
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Old 11-25-2015, 12:28 PM
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Redwilde Redwilde is offline
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Location: Boston
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Welcome on board!

First of all, congratulations on finding the cataphract camel in the hay stack, I had been completely unaware of them ^,^

I just went poking through the assorted versions of the army lists. In DBM whence they came, the cataphract camels are listed as Irr Cm (S) [and the DBM Parthian list allows 0-2 if they don't have a Hatra ally]. In DBA Cm (S) all become plain old 3Cm. In the 3.0 list they gain the honourific description of cataphract camels to help with model selection, but are still just Cm for rules purposes.

Unless I missed something, they don't get special rules treatment outside of DBM. However, if you paint them up, I'ld be happy to consider house ruling something for them!

Alas, they don't overlap timewise with my Early Bedouins; but still, would be a fun game to play.

Within the random gaming world, the chance of interaction with other camels is microscopic. But the HMGS-E gaming world interacts with the Stooges, and there could well be a Camel Wars pre-con tourney someday, and they are the sorts that may well consider a house rule for them too
"Hasta la vista, Baby!"
Battlecry of the Velites
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:50 PM
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Landru Landru is offline
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The definition of cataphracts in the "Troop Definitions" section of 2.2+ mentions that the II/22c 3Cm and the III/64 6Kn are treated as cataphracts.

"The man who has everything has a space wrench." -- Frank Zappa

"The man who has everything has an element of cataphract camels." -- Michael Hoxie
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Old 12-27-2015, 05:45 PM
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David Constable David Constable is offline
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Default Thoughts

Sorry for not replying earlier, had a lot on my mind recently.

Would it be simple enough to treat cataphract camels as 3Cm, but adding a +1 to their combat factor against mounted. That requires no complicated rules, and might be simple enough to implement.

David Constable
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