Double-based Medieval German Knights

I had purchased 2 DBA Medieval German armies 1236-1450 (IV/13b). I plan on painting one to represent the King of Bohemia with the Grafs of Moravia and Silesia (these two being 6Kn's). What I was wondering about was the appearance of the German double-based knights. What I do understand that they are to resemble a "wedge-formation". Other than that point, what would the front and rear ranks look like? I was planning of using knights wearing plate and carrying lances in the front and the back rank I was going to use the lighter Bohemian/German horsemen to the rear. Would some of the rear ranks carry crossbows? Am I totally wrong in my interpetation of these troops? Or should they all be heavily armed troops with lances to the fore and hand weapons (axe, maces, swords) to the rear? The second army I am not sure what I will do yet (either Brandenburg, Bavaria or Austria/Hapsburg). Thanks for any help with this topic.

Cheers,
Darren

The rear-rankers were apparently the poorer feudal knights, ecclesiastical knights, mercenaries, sergeants, and burghers who charged into battle along with their betters in front. In my own soon-to-be IV/13b, which will more or less represent a Hapsburg army of the late 14th cent., I chose to represent the rear ranks with some mounted sergeant figures who were about a generation or two behind in armor style - kettle helmets, spears and small kites rather than bascinets, lances and heaters.

By the way, thanks again for the CD Zurich Roll you sent me a while back - it's been a helpful tool for the above-mentioned army. Have you had any luck with sources for civic or clerical heraldry, or have you looked into that stuff? I've found a few things, but am looking for more if I can get it.

Eric

Darren, this is the first I've heard of a wedge formation for knights/mounted troops, and I would be interested in more info on it. Is there a reference you can suggest? I wonder too how we could represent such a formation on the base size DBA allows? Thanks

Originally posted by Terry Webb:
this is the first I've heard of a wedge formation for knights/mounted troops, and I would be interested in more info on it.

It's been in all sorts of WRG reference works for the older rules. It is the supposed formation of most German knights. Get a copy of Eisenstein's old movie "Alexander Nevsky" and watch the Teutonic Knights' wedge hit the Russian line. Big cast, too.

Thanks guys for the info.

Terry,
Vincent is correct and gives a beautiful example with the movie reference. These are the 6Kn or Inferior Kn represnted in DBM. The double depth base (40mmx60mm in 15mm scale)is supposed to restrict movement into a forward charge and very wide wheels. They are kind of a pain for game mechanics, but look cool when painted up. Unfortunately, most of the Medieval German lists include them and now my Later Hungarians do too.

Eric,
You are very welcome for the disc. Actually I am interested in all forms of heraldry, religious and civic. Civic is intriguing and is usually the most dificult to find. Travel is the best source. Second to that is the International Civic Heraldry site. The only thing to beware of are modern adaptations or ex-communist symbolism. The other thing that is nice about that site is that some of the cities listed will have historical references written with the heraldry (origin, symbol meanings, whose control the city was under, who granted the arms, etc...). As for religious, most are pretty common as patron saints or showing papal authority. These are even easier to find through numastics. Many coins will have references, old and new. I was tickled to find on some modern Ukranian coins the "columns of Gediminas" stamped on them.

Thanks again for the help.
Cheers,
Darren

Originally posted by Darren Buxbaum:
I had purchased 2 DBA Medieval German armies 1236-1450 (IV/13b). I plan on painting one to represent the King of Bohemia with the Grafs of Moravia and Silesia

They are not Grafen, but the Margrave (Marquess) of Moravia, and the Duke(s) of Silesia.

Thanks Michael,
I got the titles wrong. I was writing off of the cuff and didn't look at my book. I will have to edit my other post to get it right. By the way, what are your thoughts on the double-based knights?

Cheers,
Darren

Darren,

Can you (or another Fanatici) point me towards any heraldry references for Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia or Brandenburg for this period?

Thanks,
Jason

Originally posted by Darren Buxbaum:
I had purchased 2 DBA Medieval German armies 1236-1450 (IV/13b). I plan on painting one to represent the King of Bohemia with the Grafs of Moravia and Silesia (these two being 6Kn's).
Cheers,
Darren

[ June 05, 2003, 08:26: Message edited by: miros ]

Jason,
a must have book that is a good springboard for the subject is WRG's Armies of the Middle Ages, vol 2 , by Ian Heath. The Feudal Armies book is good too, but is out of print. Here are the descriptions:

King of Bohemia: Gules, a lion rampant queue' fourchee and passed in saltire argent, armed and crowned or

Duke of Brieg, Silesia: Or, an eagle displayed sable, langued gules, charged with a crescent argent

Markgraf von Moravia: Azure, an eagle displayed chequey argent and gules, membered, crowned and armed or

These are taken directly from that book. Hopefully this can help. I will try to provide a color scan later.

Cheers,
Darren

Ps. I forgot the Margrave of Brandenburg (not in the book, but on the Zurich Roll of Arms. A great site for German Heraldry!) Argent, eagle displayed gules, langued and armed (with a crescent? ending in a trefoil at each wingtip) or. The Manessa Codex site is very useful as well.

[ June 05, 2003, 08:49: Message edited by: Darren Buxbaum ]

As an aside, an online essay I ran across at deremilitari.org (?) on town defense in medieval Germany stated that many city burghers were rather well-equipped, maybe not to the extent of proper feudal chivalry, but not necessarily too much behind the times either.

Eric