Can Anglo Saxons beat vikings?

[Neubauten]

I have fought quite a few games between the Middle Anglo Saxons or Anglo Danish and the Vikings. To the best of my memory they have all ended with the vikings victorious. Can anyone give a general with loads of Spear advice on how to beat an army almost wholly composed of blades?

[Spanikopites]

1) Find a hill

2) Die on it

3) Repeat until Vikings go home

Yeah, amazing how Alfred actually drove out the louts...

I think it is a hopeless match in DBA.

The only success I've had is scrapping in bad going with low factor and luck. Even then it's a close run thing.

[Spanikopites]

Notice, no other replies...

The head-scratching is deafening.

Lousy Vikings.

[Pthomas]

Maneuver and deception.

A head to head meeting will give you nothing, but a slow ignominious defeat.

Deploy in columns, use terrain to block, channel, break up his blade wall.

Use your single psiloi (do they still get one?) to delay and annoy part of his army while you concentrate on defeating in detail another part of his army.

Find the edge of his battle line or create an edge to his battle line grab hold of it like a dog with a bone and shake it till it breaks.

Offer him a victim and see if he will pounce on it.

Believe you can win. This is actually the most important thing.

[Rich Gause]

Play the Early Middle Saxons, they can have warband. Other than that find a hill and die on it. I suspect that the Alfred vs Danes fights were more similiar to Anglo-Dane civil wars than Anglo-Danes vs Vikings.

[Paul Potter]

I have fought quite a few games between the Middle Anglo Saxons or Anglo Danish and the Vikings. To the best of my memory they have all ended with the vikings victorious. Can anyone give a general with loads of Spear advice on how to beat an army almost wholly composed of blades?

You can win but good luck. In a straight up line of spears vs line of blades you will lose (as he gets double overlaps on you his dice rolls will soon be doubling yours and it will be over).

If you are using the 'a' middle saxons take at least 2 warbands. The general war band with a support warband placed in the center of your line can punch through the center of his line of blades, the next turn use your extra move option to swing around making contact with the rears of several of his blades while your cav and psiloi are making their way as a team around one of the viking flanks making flank and rear contact. It will all end fairly soon for the northern invaders.

If your using the 'b' list it is a bit harder. Deploy in a manner where you over extend his line by several elements and attempt to use your ponderous 200p move to wrap around the end of his line and defeat him there. The one lone psiloi comes in handy as a helper here. Aslo consider taking the 2 horde options. Place them at the other end of your line and don't make contact with the vikings. This will slow down his attempt to wrap around you.

Which ever list you are using deploy in a way to move up to bad going but do not enter it. Make him come thru it to contact you, if he is in bad and your spears are not then he gets the minus 2 terrian mod. As mentiond in an ealier post stay on a hill if possible.

The cav (if using 'a') and your psiloi will be the heros of the day. Send them around to make rear and flank contacts.

Hope that your viking opponent does not take the warband option.

[JamesLDIII]

Version 1.x was a bit more fun and even with the Vikings treated mostly as Warband with only a few blade.

Here are the old army notes for both the Anglo-Danes and the Vikings:

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba113.html
http://fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba106a.html

I agree with Pthomas and Spanikopites. The challenge defending on a hill is you essentially cede the initiative to the Viking player who will figure out how to attack you from a position of advantage. Instead it is better to play the bad going game and try to wrest the initiative from your opponent. Fighting in bad going, because it lowers each side's combat factor by 2, makes it more possible (actually possible at all!) for the die swings to result in your killing a blade by doubling it. Basically, you have to beat the Vikings with your blade general, blades, and psiloi before he defeats you with his warband.

[Mark Davies]

Here's a battle report where the Anglo-Danish got lucky:

http://www.fanaticus.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=8848

[neldoreth]

I think that if you could split up the viking force and bring greater forces to bare against them, you have a good chance. Using bad going to your advantage, i.e. have a rough hill/wood directly in the middle of the board, you can pounce on the smaller and less modile half of the Viking forces and overwhelm them.

This would work particularily well against over-confident viking generals. Of course, a viking worth their salt would see through your ruse... but, offer some incentive... make it look like your undefended camp is sitting and waiting for a viking sack! No viking general would refuse such bait... When they go for it, redeploy and destroy!

Anyway, I've never successfully done it, but now I wish I hadn't sold my middle anglos so that I could give it a try :D

n.

[Neubauten]

Some very interesting ideas, thanks. It's reassuring to know that others have had similar experiences with this match-up. So in summary, I need to roll a lot of 6s, pick an inexperienced foe who is willing to split his troops or advance through bag going - and still find a nice hill to die on. :) I think I will experiment with scenarios / rules tweaks. Maybe a Stamford bridge scenario where the norse start at a disadvantage. I don't mind fighting a losing battle, but a glacially slow slog to inevitable defeat or victory is not all that much fun for either player.

[John Meunier]

Some very interesting ideas, thanks. It's reassuring to know that others have had similar experiences with this match-up. So in summary, I need to roll a lot of 6s, pick an inexperienced foe who is willing to split his troops or advance through bag going - and still find a nice hill to die on. :) I think I will experiment with scenarios / rules tweaks. Maybe a Stamford bridge scenario where the norse start at a disadvantage. I don't mind fighting a losing battle, but a glacially slow slog to inevitable defeat or victory is not all that much fun for either player.

You could reclassify most of the Viking army to spear as well.

In the old, old, old pre-DBA days, the WRG system classified the bulk of the Viking army as what was essentially spearmen with only the huscarls carrying big nasty axes.

[Paul A. Hannah]

Can Middle Anglo-Saxons or Anglo-Danish beat Vikings?Not often, it seems, out here in the NAGS Empire, at least. Just for grins, I looked in the latest NAGS COMPENDIVM (lovingly compiled by Andy Hooper) to see how each of these armies does against the Norse Vikings.

The III/24 Middle Anglo-Saxons have beaten the III/40 Vikings once (see, it can happen), and lost to them 10 times.

The III/71 Anglo-Danish have yet to beat the III/40 Vikings, and lost to them 8 times. Sigh.

Of course, as we always say, it's all just fun with numbers: There's no way to know the skill-level of the players involved, who won the terrain roll, etc.

[Paul A. Hannah]

Can anyone give a general with loads of Spear advice on how to beat [a Viking army] almost wholly composed of Blades?Be bold and place a Waterway if you are the Defender, which you likely will be against Vikings.

Okay, you're probably saying I'm totally nuts to give a Littoral army a beach to land on. But, think about it: How often have you, as a Carthaginian, NKE player squandered a littoral landing and lost the very four elements you landed? Speaking for myself, I know I've screwed them up (and I'm pretty savvy at littoral landings). Give your opponent the opportunity to make those same mistakes.

It's all about breaking up the paradigm of facing a 12-element, Blade shield-wall. Invite him or her to land four elements on your flank or even your rear (gulp), and then concentrate on defeating those four elements. Game over!

Place some Bad Going opposite the Waterway to discourage his choosing that side to deploy. All is still not necessarily lost if the Waterway ends up in your rear.

If the Waterway ends up on your side, however, be even bolder: Place your Camp near the beach! (Your opponent should be positively drooling at this point.) If your opponent goes for the bait, your Camp, even if lost briefly to the Vikings, could prove a wonderful black hole to suck in one or more Blade elements to their eternal doom!

I tried this tactic (with Andalusians) most recently against a well-skilled Viking player a couple days ago. He didn't take the bait of going for the Camp, but I almost beat his landing party, before losing 5-4 in OT. Tense, entertaining game...

[John Meunier]

Paul reminds of a timeless truth in DBA.

You are not trying to defeat his army. You are trying to kill four of his elements.

The key is getting four of those blades somewhere you can kill them. Lined up shoulder to shoulder with their buddies is not such a place. This is one reason why I'm not a big fan of the "plant them on a hill" strategy. You need to get him reacting to you in some way.

Dangling juicy bait may be the best option with this match up, but more clever players and I will likely think of more.

[Jeff Franz]

Taunt them with Ps and hope you don't lock....they can not kill you and it will make him tempted to mess with his line and use pips. If he does not take the bait, taunt him yet again by calling him a pansy of a viking.....

Jeff

Oh, by the way, go with the water way idea, it works alot of the time.

[Mike Porter]

With the warband option, I would prefer to have them operate on the flank of the blade line, rather than the middle. I've had good success with this tactic. Let the spears hold their ground for a couple turns while you try to get your win with the Wb. Get them moving through the bad going with a Ps to screen.

[Spanikopites]

Still unconvinced guys.

Most of these strategies hinge on the assumption the Viko player is daft, drunk or me.

But seriously, I'd love to play against a Saxon who sets a voluntary littoral board (you've got date for Fallcon or earlier Mr Hannah) and spreads his forces about. Bit sized bits are just as digestible. (That said I would do this tactic as an A-S player.)

The Wb talk is good, but if you are playing by the book, that Middle Saxon list is over by the time the Norse Knuckleheads arrive. The Saxons all have steady jobs and have given up on the old-school charge and scream method.

I suggest this one of those historical matches that DBA kicks square in the jublies. Perhaps in DBMMMMMM or something similar the A-S get more dudes per points and gave overwhelm the Vikos with Saex-fodder, but in DBA it's just a slow, tedious crunchfest.

-S, who loves to play the Welsh against N's Norse.

[JamesLDIII]

The other option you have is to get all the armies in the 1066 campaign and only play with the armies as part of a campaign. Then get an ally with the troops you need to defeat the Vikings!

1066 was the first campaign I played in, and it has been my favorite.

[btswanfury]

Or you could solve the problem by playing as Carolingian Frankish :silly

Somehow, my 5 KN elements have never had a problem with the vikings. :up

[Ed Dillon]

I take it that you never played under DBA v. 1.1 ?
:)

Ed

[neldoreth]

I think the waterway idea is a crazy gamble at best... I have, more than a few times, marched my Littoral vikings across the length of the back field of an army (including an Anglo army) with four viking elements, killing droves of poor sods and capturing the camp anyway, while all the while the eight other viking elements watched enviously from the other side of the board! That being said, it's always close... a nail biter for sure.

-S, the next time we meet, your Wb Welsh are in for it!! :)

n.

[mellis1644]

Unfortunately the better way to balance this might be to make the Viking list is a little powerful/blade heavy. Without a more balanced army setup this is always going to be a serious challenge for the Anglo-Saxons. You need luck as well as tactics to win as the A-S with that match up.

Note: Viking armies did have guys with bows - the saga's have plenty of comments on bow armed troops and skirmishers. They were used in front and then behind/on the side of the sheildwall. So an element of Ps or two would not be out of place. Also, the all Bd vs having some Sp (which to me fit better with the shield wall idea) and Wb could be a stretch especially if you class the A-S as Sp.

For example, if modeling Stanford bridge the Vikings there did not have much of their normal amour, and although they had the higher ground for their shield wall, they did fall for some false retreats and lost overall. This sounds much more like the behavior of Wb than Bd's - but that's is just one special case of course and in history the Vikings won most of the time in this match up. :)

[Paul A. Hannah]

Unfortunately the better way to balance this might be to make the Viking list is a little powerful/blade heavy.Sure, with any number of house-rules, or set-piece, historical scenarios, one can attempt to balance what might seem to be an un-balanced match-up. One could say the Vikings were feeling sullen one day (or horribly hungover), and make them all Hordes. But then they wouldn't be Vikings as we know them in DBA. (Grins.)

However, the OP wondered, within the framework of standard DBA rules and army-lists, what tactics might be effective for Middle AS and/or Anglo-Danes against those nasty, hairy Vikings.

For me, it's a great question. I don't have any magic-bullet ideas, but I sure' love exploring possibilities. It's a great exercise in problem-solving, which only adds to the challenge and appeal of DBA.

[Ed Dillon]

Breach-loading spears?

[Jeff Franz]

Breach-loading spears?
Nice very nice

Jeff

[Barron of Ideas]

Breach-loading spears?

HOTT shooters only move two inches now, so can't withdraw from melee with heavy infantry. I think that is a defect in the HOTT rules as amended since shooters are a hybrid of Bow and Psilloi (as originally designed, I think, where else do the Psilloi go? and why else was the shooter move originally three inches) I am pretty sure spears who shoot will not prevail against blades, unless the breach loading spear shooting factor remains 4. Even then 4 to 5 is not a real prospect to kill the Blade, even with 6/1 results.

If we aren't playing HOTT, please explain how you get the breach loading spears to shoot?

[Bill Sumruld]

First you make sure they capture several wagons loaded heavily with Mead. Then you wait until they are passed out trying to sleep it off. Then you attack. Problem solved.

[Il Duce]

I rather liked the Vikings in 1.0.

Better for Vike on Vike too.

[Ed Dillon]

<snip>
If we aren't playing HOTT, please explain how you get the breach loading spears to shoot?


By pulling the trigger...


Ed

[Barron of Ideas]

By pulling the trigger...


Ed


Roy Rogers will be upset at you for pulling his horse.

[Pozanias]

Still unconvinced guys.

Most of these strategies hinge on the assumption the Viko player is daft, drunk or me.



That's because the truth is that in a match between reasonably competent players, the vikings will win every game except a few flukey lopsided dice games.

Massed blade beating massed spear is about as certain a matchup as there is in DBA. It may take some time, but the result is virtually guaranteed.

With most other mismatches, the weaker army usually has *some* advantage (bad going prowess, mobility, quick kill, etc). Some possibility for a tactical advantage. In this case there is none (except as one poster mentioned, a few warband that could make a difference).

The spear player has to either be significantly better, or significantly luckier.

[Barron of Ideas]

That's because the truth is that in a match between reasonably competent players, the vikings will win every game except a few flukey lopsided dice games.

Massed blade beating massed spear is about as certain a matchup as there is in DBA. It may take some time, but the result is virtually guaranteed.

With most other mismatches, the weaker army usually has *some* advantage (bad going prowess, mobility, quick kill, etc). Some possibility for a tactical advantage. In this case there is none (except as one poster mentioned, a few warband that could make a difference).

The spear player has to either be significantly better, or significantly luckier.


It looks like the general consensus is, when offered this pair of armies, take the Vikings. The question that then arrises, is why would anyone use their gaming time taking the spear army? Almost everyone I know who plays DBA wants to win the games they play.

In a way this topic is entirely hypothetical, no one (almost) is actually going to take a spear army and play against Vikings (except perhaps solo wargamers in a campaign?) I guess the next hypothetical question is why would anyone play DBA solo, if they had opponents?

[David Kuijt]

The question that then arrises, is why would anyone use their gaming time taking the spear army? Almost everyone I know who plays DBA wants to win the games they play.


I don't think your characterization is very accurate. There are lots of people who play Early Libyans, Catalan Company, and other severely challenged armies. There are many reasons why someone might play an army -- the pure win percentage is only one reason, and not always very important.

The only reason that the Viking/Saxon matchup offends me, personally, is that it is an interesting historical matchup that seems to be incorrectly handled. Sure, the Vikings were better, historically -- but they didn't have as much advantage in real life as Mark (correctly) points out they have in DBA.

[Jeff Franz]

Truthfully, I will take the wimpy army just to have the challenge. If the Army is truly abysmal, then I take it solely for bragging rights when I get a kill....

So I would almost always take the Saxons over the Vikings....Unless it was the Leidang with a Horde...then I would play the Horde for similar reasons.


Jeff

[Gary Pomeroyq]

It looks like the general consensus is, when offered this pair of armies, take the Vikings. The question that then arrises, is why would anyone use their gaming time taking the spear army? Almost everyone I know who plays DBA wants to win the games they play.

Actually, I'm considering of using my PF Scots in the Enfilade Open this year. Your Indians should have little trouble with them, but you might have noticed from the games we've played that I'm not overly concerned with winning. If I end up facing Free Co on a billiard table it won't bother me much; I'll just close my eyes & think of Scotland.

[The Last Conformist]

It looks like the general consensus is, when offered this pair of armies, take the Vikings. The question that then arrises, is why would anyone use their gaming time taking the spear army? Almost everyone I know who plays DBA wants to win the games they play.
When I play, I play to win, but it doesn't follow I always chose the most killeriest army before I play - I often chose a weak or mediocre army for the challenge (and for variety - it'd get dull playing the same army always). In today's Chinese theme tourney, frex, I'll be playing the Liao (2x7Hd and only 2 decent foot), while a friend is bringing the Sui (4x7Hd!).

[Neubauten]

In answer to those who question why anyone would want to take the Anglo Saxons against the Vikings, for me it comes down to the history. Viking era Britain is the period and place that interests me the most, and the Anglo Saxons army is one of the forces that have always fascinated me, so I really want them to be part of my games. Plus I spent a long time painting the little guys so I want them to see some action.

[JamesLDIII]

One option you can try to even out the viking anglo-dane (Bd vs Sp) battles when you are playing a campaign or one off game is to go back to the DBM army lists and adjust the units with troop grading.

I don't have the book in front of me, but IIRC the vikings have some superior, inferior, and fast blades. The Anglo-Danes have a similar breakdown of troops. When you differentiate more between the troops you create some new possibilities with troop matchups that might affect the outcome.

My variant rules on the yahoo dba groups page include adjustments for these troops. I cut and pasted them somewhere in another thread, but here are relevant pieces for you:

300 paces 3Sp and 3Bd moving off road in good going

-1 if (I) Troops roll less than opponent on dice before applying ANY factors.
+1 if (S) Troops roll less than opponent on dice before applying ANY factors.
-1 If 3Bd in close combat

[Spanikopites]

As someone who has made a reputation* for championing the Washington Generals of DBA (Early Saxons, Early Libyans, Bithynians) I agree with the posters for whom winning is the icing for a dramatic-game-well-played-cake.

I too have an Anglo-Dane force**. I have Early Saxons too. And yes, I will probably do a full-on Middle Saxon army 'a' list full on merciless mercians, cause that's how I roll.

-S


*good, bad, ugly,

**who have spent most of their days as a chew toy for the Pre-Feudal Scots.( a big Wha' Hae! to Gary Pq.)

[Jeff Franz]

As someone who has made a reputation* for championing the Washington Generals of DBA (Early Saxons, Early Libyans, Bithynians) I agree with the posters for whom winning is the icing for a dramatic-game-well-played-cake.

I too have an Anglo-Dane force**. I have Early Saxons too. And yes, I will probably do a full-on Middle Saxon army 'a' list full on merciless mercians, cause that's how I roll.

-S


*good, bad, ugly,

**who have spent most of their days as a chew toy for the Pre-Feudal Scots.( a big Wha' Hae! to Gary Pq.)


Absoooo-Freakin-lute-ly

Jeff

[mellis1644]

The only reason that the Viking/Saxon matchup offends me, personally, is that it is an interesting historical matchup that seems to be incorrectly handled. Sure, the Vikings were better, historically -- but they didn't have as much advantage in real life as Mark (correctly) points out they have in DBA.

I second this comment wholeheartedly.

With the 12 element fixed limit the armies should make this match up a good and close game and at present does not. Vikings should have the edge but not by much. A real miss for the dark ages IMO. :(

Unfortunately, it's not the only case this type of thing happens across the DBx rules, but it's also not that common to cause major issues across the board.

If you want to play a 'more balanced' dark age campaign/game then a custom/home grown set of lists may be an idea.

Mark

[Barron of Ideas]

Actually, I'm considering of using my PF Scots in the Enfilade Open this year. Your Indians should have little trouble with them, but you might have noticed from the games we've played that I'm not overly concerned with winning. If I end up facing Free Co on a billiard table it won't bother me much; I'll just close my eyes & think of Scotland.


Well, when I am wrong I guess I ought to admit it. Given a choice I seem to be in a minority in prefering to win. Perhaps thats why so few people want to play DBA with me?

I'm not sure which army I will take in the DBA Open at Enfilade the Memorial Day weekend. I need to check to see if the sponsor (Fire and Sword?) of the Open has me down as winning one of his tournaments with the Indians. Probably to encourage sales of new armies, once you win one of his Opens with a particular army you are no longer eligible to play with it in an Open. I guess they are (Partially) Opens.

I bought a set of French Ordonnance armies, IV 82 a and b, but I can't paint worth a lick and hope to find someone to paint them for me (for money) at Enfilade. Maybe I can take them to Enfilade 2011.

Clearly I think they have a superior chance over most other armies (two artillery should make elephant burgers of most Indian armies) since they beat my Palmyrans a couple of years ago. I distinctly remember their Knight General dismouting to an archer and killing my Knight General in hand to hand combat. I had a PIP problem, leave the general there to get shot at or try to get lucky at a 4 to 5 melee, loser dying. Oh well, it was a good game, I had a chance. Unlike spears versus blades.

Queen Victoria was reputed to have "thought of England" perhaps it was Mary, Queen of Scots who "thought of Scotland", first?

[Paul A. Hannah]

Probably to encourage sales of new armies, once you win one of his Opens with a particular army you are no longer eligible to play with it in an Open. I guess they are (Partially) Opens.I'm not aware of such a rhubric, Barron of Ideas, in The Enfilade Open (http://enfilade.gamecon.us/reg/EventView.asp?ID=128), hosted by The Game Matrix.

I know that DK adheres to that maxim in armies he enters in open tournies, e.g. if he wins an open tourney with Early Libyans, then he will no longer run that army in any future open event. But that's his choice, not that of any GM that I know of.

For the record, I hold myself to that same lofty standard in open tournies, but, so far, that has not limited my choice of armies one iota --cuz I have yet to win one. (Grins.)

[Rich Gause]

I'm not aware of such a rhubric, Barron of Ideas, in The Enfilade Open (http://enfilade.gamecon.us/reg/EventView.asp?ID=128), hosted by The Game Matrix.

I know that DK adheres to that maxim in armies he enters in open tournies, e.g. if he wins an open tourney with Early Libyans, then he will no longer run that army in any future open event. But that's his choice, not that of any GM that I know of.

For the record, I hold myself to that same lofty standard in open tournies, but, so far, that has not limited my choice of armies one iota. (Grins.)

I hold myself to sort of the same standard, I won't play an army that I win a particular open event in in the same event. Since I haven't won any opens it is an easy standar to adhere to...........................

[Don Ray]

I hold myself to sort of the same standard, I won't play an army that I win a particular open event in in the same event. Since I haven't won any opens it is an easy standar to adhere to...........................

Thankfully, I never have to worry about this! See you at enfilade!
Don

[Terry37]

I know the dilemma, and that is why I prefer dark ages as HotT.

Terry

[Tony Aguilar]

I hold myself to sort of the same standard, I won't play an army that I win a particular open event in in the same event. Since I haven't won any opens it is an easy standar to adhere to...........................

...and there are a few others of the same mindset in our group too. :)

[Kontos]

What's winning an Open Tournament? I have no idea. ;)

I guess that leaves my menu of available armies to use wide open. :D

Frank