forming a colum - >Phil responds

[xeswop]

A group can always reduce frontage to become a column. "Such a column" means "a single element wide column". Presumably some one's rule lawyer opponent told him he couldn't do it, or the matter would not have been raised. I'm amazed that anyone should take it on himself to do so. In my opinion he should get a life.

Phil

I stand corrected!

I am missing more interps than I am getting right so I guess I should drop out of doing so and "get a life."
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/bmc/aktion077.gif

If people want interps they should go directly to Phil. I will limit myself to resolving problems in tournaments I umpire.

[ April 26, 2005, 11:06: Message edited by: Bob. ]

[cpagano]

Originally posted by Bob.:

I am missing more interps than I am getting right so I guess I should drop out of doing so and "get a life."

If people want interps they should go directly to Phil. I will limit myself to resolving problems in tournaments I umpire. This is one interp that I would definitely disagree with!
(That is, I don't think Bob should take this to mean that he should get out of the businees of interpreting rules.)

Bob, you have a better track record on this than just about anyone else.

[ April 26, 2005, 15:18: Message edited by: cpagano ]

[Martian]

A response from Phil on a question sent Dec 3, 2004
:
> Basic DBA question:
>
> Can three Psiloi who are in line formation, but all three IN bad going
> terrain, form a column as a one PIP group move?
>
> Don't look at the rule as written, I'm looking for your original
> intention.

I can only assume that my intention was expressed accurately in the rules. They are clearly a group. They can only make a group move in column. A group move can include reducing frontage to make a column. Therefore they can move as a column.

Phil

[ April 26, 2005, 11:32: Message edited by: Martian ]

[David Kuijt]

That's a cool Graemlin, Bob!

[Ares]

Hmm... on the issue Bob brought up, my own interpretation corresponds with Phil's. On the issue Martian addressed, if I have understood the intent, I would have thought the psiloi could not have formed column as a group move because no troops can make a group move into or through bad going unless they are already in column...

Eric

PS Rereading Phil's response to Martian, I get what he's saying; even if three Blades formed a line in bad going by individual moves, they could still form a column as a group move to continue moving inside the bad going. But if we consider the wording of the restrictions on groups moving through bad going, then that interpretation wouldn't be exactly crystal-clear (surprise, surprise...)

[ April 26, 2005, 15:03: Message edited by: Ares ]

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by Bob.:
I am missing more interps than I am getting right so I guess I should drop out of doing so and "get a life."
Heaven forfend that any of us should get a life!

If it weren't for the work you personally have put in to clarifying and explaining the game, many people who now play and enjoy the game would not be playing DBA at all. That seems like a pretty important achievement and its one which, I know, is widely appreciated in the community.

Andrew

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Ares:
On the issue Martian addressed, if I have understood the intent,It looks to me like Phil is confusing DBA with DBM. This has happened before; when I've played him in person I had to refresh his knowledge of the rules once or twice (memorably, in a BBDBA doubles game, DS and I found that he forgot BUA exert ZOC and contradicted his earlier stance on camp followers).

[xeswop]

David, what is the DBM rule that Phil is being confused with?

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Bob.:
David, what is the DBM rule that Phil is being confused with? I don't know DBM, actually (I try not to overload my brain); DS told me last night that there is some DBM rule that says something like that. Dave?

[Nixalsverdrus]

Originally posted by Bob.:
... what is the DBM rule that Phil is being confused with? ... In DBM, a group move can include expanding from a single element column and contracting to a single element column at any time.

There are elaborate rules how this has to be done (what element moves first, how other elements are placed behind it etc.)

IMHO the DBM and the DBA rules are written in a sort of Shortspeak for those people who already know how to play the game. You just can not deduct every detail from the text written.

So I am not surprised that Phil finds the rules to define clearly what he has in mind right now.

His current rule "a group might contract at any time to a single element column" can be read in the DBA rules (if one wants to read the text this way).

[ April 28, 2005, 12:14: Message edited by: Nixalsverdrus ]

[David Schlanger]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bob.:
David, what is the DBM rule that Phil is being confused with? I don't know DBM, actually (I try not to overload my brain); DS told me last night that there is some DBM rule that says something like that. Dave? </font>[/QUOTE]Basically that you can contract to form column at any time.

DS

[<uppsalanisse>]

Please Bob, don't get a life! smile.gif

I think you are doing a great job disecting the DBA rules. My only major disagreement with you is that I think you put too much emphasis on Phil Barker's intent (which seems to vary over time).

I put as much, if not more, trust in your reading of the rules as in his. But most of all I believe that when there is a general concensus in the gaming community that should prevail.

[Wagnerion]

I simply had to go back and reread the Tactical move section of DBA2.2 p8 concerning groups and hey! it doesn't say anything about whether the group is in BGo or not when it forms a column so I guess forming a single element wide column with the x# of elements as a group in BGo is allowed provided, of course, that you form the group in BGo using individual element moves beforehand or if you Deploy in a line as a group in BGo - this means you can move out of or across BGo by forming a single element wide column as a group...

I know this is not the case in DBAOL and I can't remember if it was a restriction in the Zurich tournies I've played...but I sure as hell am going to form columns from in BGo in future! :D

[ May 09, 2005, 14:38: Message edited by: Wagnerion ]

[Ares]

Originally posted by Wagnerion:
I simply had to go back and reread the Tactical move section of DBA2.2 p8 concerning groups and hey! it doesn't say anything about whether the group is in BGo or not when it forms a column so I guess forming a single element wide column with the x# of elements as a group in BGo is allowed provided, of course, that you form the group in BGo using individual element moves beforehand or if you Deploy in a line as a group in BGo [...]Yep, this is my reading too. As long as the column formed is pointing in the same direction as the original line of elements, you can form it anywhere.

Eric

[Pthomas]

I have a question:

If a group can form a column anywhere at any time for any reason, why doesn't the rule just say a group can reduce frontage to form a column for 1 pip? Why is there all these restrictions on forming column. Seems like forming column is intended to be restricted to a few set conditions.

[Pozanias]

Originally posted by Pthomas:
I have a question:

If a group can form a column anywhere at any time for any reason, why doesn't the rule just say a group can reduce frontage to form a column for 1 pip? Why is there all these restrictions on forming column. Seems like forming column is intended to be restricted to a few set conditions. There are no restrictions on forming a column.

A group move can include:

- reducing frontage to form (a single element) column

- reducing frontage to pass through a gap between terrain featuress or troops of at least 1 element base width [presumably the differenc between this point and the last one is that the frontage reduction doesn't have to result in a single element wide column]

- following a road

- moving half an element width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead

[ May 09, 2005, 17:19: Message edited by: Pozanias ]

[Wagnerion]

Originally posted by Pthomas:
Seems like forming column is intended to be restricted to a few set conditions. yeah it is...its the only way for a group to the cross BGo, a river or pass between terrain or friendly troops but I think I see what you mean because that explains what a column is for....so yes, you are right...why doesn't it simply say:"a group can reduce frontage to form a column for 1 pip"

I doubt that this means there is a hidden meaning or intent though...

John

[Martian]

Originally posted by Pozanias:
There are no restrictions on forming a column. Only one actually. No element can move farther than it's normal movement while forming the column (or otherwise reducing frontage.)

Marty

[Pozanias]

Originally posted by Wagnerion:
....so yes, you are right...why doesn't it simply say:"a group can reduce frontage to form a column for 1 pip"

John Essentially, it does say just that. I think people (myself included) have erroneosly jumbled the rule for forming a single element wide column and the rule for reducing frontage to pass through a gap.

On top of that, most of us took "such" to mean a column moving along a road, in bad going, etc -- where "such" really means single element wide.

Clarifying these two things really makes the group move rules simpler to understand. Do they make the rules better... I don't know.

[ May 10, 2005, 19:05: Message edited by: Pozanias ]

[Pthomas]

Why is it so easy command and control wise to form a column and so expensive to form a line?

[konstantinius]

Something tells me it must have something to do with real formation drill. Spreading out from column to line must take longer and be harder than the other way around. I've been in the reserves but we've only had 50-60 people at the time in the formation and were only 6 abreast. The only line to column we had to do was when the 3 files to the right stood fast untill passed by the 3 to the left and then they fell behind. Not much there, really.
What I noticed was that it took a bit and there was always some confusion falling in after chow. That was a situation when people had to shuffle to find their place, got it wrong, moved again etc. I remember that I fell in with the wrong company altogether once!. It was winter and we're all wrapped up in balaclavas, watch caps, and scarves. Oblivious to the company penant with its number emblazoned on it, I saw my own company marching by at the intersection. I fell back and switched as the two formations met past. What can I say, everyone looked the same: a masked mass of unequal heights with two eyholes and a mouthole trodding by.

[Pozanias]

I can think of three possible explanations:

1) the difference is arbitrary. There was no intention, it's just the way the rules are.

2) it's a game balance issue. Forming a column from a line is useful. Forming a line from a column is much more useful. I beleive the two together would negatively impact the game in a significant way.

3) there is some historical basis. Troops can form a line more easily than expand from it.

I have no idea if #3 is true or not.

[Volund]

Originally posted by Pozanias:
I can think of three possible explanations:

<snip>

3) there is some historical basis. Troops can form a line more easily than expand from it.

I have no idea if #3 is true or not. I think this is true - but I presume you mean they can form a COLUMN more easily than expand from it? From my limited experience in the British Army, lines are exremely difficult to form and dress, because you have to look to your front while dressing to your left and right. To form a column, you just fall in the front rank and everyone else falls in behind them, looking and dressing to the front.

More particularly thoughh, think about the times you want to form a line or column. You want to form a line at the END of a period of movement in column, whereas you tend to form a column to BEGIN a move away from a static line.

Doing the latter is just a metter of telling the central element to step off, and every other element falls in behind them; the fact that the column is moving as it forms is helpful because you can adjust on-the-hoof.

Forming line from column however means either having elements diverge from one another, each following their own path to their ultimate destination, or (more likely) aiming the column to the right hand end of the desired line, wheeling left in succession as you reach that point, then halting and right-facing. Both long-winded and (if near the enemy) vulnerable processes.

Kim
Lt (retired) 28th/61st Foot (The Gloucestershire Regiment!)

[Pozanias]

Originally posted by Volund:

I think this is true - but I presume you mean they can form a COLUMN more easily than expand from it? Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry for my carelessness.