A group move starting in GG going into BG

[Darren Buxbaum]

I have a question that has come up in my gaming group that I can't find a quotable answer in the DBA rules for. Here goes:

A group of 3 Ax in a line starts 100 paces away from woods (BG). Since Ax max movement is 300 paces, can the line continue the remainder of its movement (200 paces) as a group through the woods? Common sense to me says "yes". I figure if orders were given in an open space that could be easily communicated, that the group would carry on (provided that they are not hindered by BG such as any mounted) through the terrain until they would have to stop at the end of their movement rate. Each element would then "find their own way" to reach that stopping point. I guess it would be better to describe the movement as the group's impetous after the order was given. The next bound would then make sense for the use of multiple PIPs due to the difficulty of communication with the general (some may see the the flag waving and others may not). I am on the right track? Or is there a direct quote I am missing from the rules? I know that this sounds painfully simple, but I want to make sure I explain it correctly. Thanks in advance.

[ March 17, 2005, 23:44: Message edited by: Darren Buxbaum ]

[Nils Kullinger]

The answer to your question is definately NO. They cannot move as a group in or into BG, unless in a column.

I'll check for the exact wording.

[Dave Crowell]

Page 8, Paragraph 9 "A group move by road, or across bad going, or across any but a paltry river, must be in a single element wide column."

This would be the rule. I agree that it does not seem intuitive in this case.

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by Darren Buxbaum:
I have a question that has come up in my gaming group that I can't find a quotable answer in the DBA rules for. Here goes:

A group of 3 Ax in a line starts 100 paces away from woods (BG). Since Ax max movement is 300 paces, can the line continue the remainder of its movement (200 paces) as a group through the woods? No.

While you have provided an interesting and somewhat plausible explanation for allowing a continuation of a group move into bad going, this creates situations that the author prefers to avoid. So he simplifies by saying no linear group moves in bad going (entering or continuing)at all.

The specific rule has already been cited, but I will point out that "across bad going" could have been written as "enters into or continues movement in bad going." But that takes up eight words, while the former only uses three. While this makes the rules maddening at times (just see Bob B's commentary which continues for dozens or hundreds of pages), such word economy means the actual rules only take up about two pages.

[xeswop]

For one pip the group can move from a line into a column to enter the bad going. It will require a pip per element to then reform into line.

[SteveW]

Just to expand a little bit further on this topic, could it be confirmed (or not), which of the elements is eligible to form the lead element of the column. I assume that any element could be the lead element, provided that it had sufficient movement to enter the bad going in the turn the column formed.

Would it also be correct to assume that whichever interpretation is correct, applies in other situations (contracting to pass through a gap etc).

[Darren Buxbaum]

Thanks guys for your help. One other question then: If the line of Ax moves forward the 100 paces, would it the just stop at the edge of the woods if it doesn't form a column?

[imported_JLogan]

Originally posted by Darren Buxbaum:
Thanks guys for your help. One other question then: If the line of Ax moves forward the 100 paces, would it the just stop at the edge of the woods if it doesn't form a column? Hi Darren! Yes; it would stop. Bear in mind if it did form a column, then the lead element could continue the other full 200 paces (for a total of 300), with the other 2 Aux elements just falling in behind it.

BTW, great to see you at Little Wars and thanks very much for that great pick-up game that night!

Cheers

John

[imported_JLogan]

Originally posted by Bob.:
For one pip the group can move from a line into a column to enter the bad going. It will require a pip per element to then reform into line. Bob;
I'm pretty certain this is what you meant, but just to be clear; for such a 3 element column to reform into line, would require the 2nd and 3rd
elements to each make a measured move as individual elemnts and spend a PIP each to do so.

Also, such a column of Aux could only reform into a line, even by spending 2 PIPs to move individually the 2nd & 3rd rank elements, if they each went to either side of the lead element. They could not both form up on one or another side only of the lead element (i.e. with the lead element thus now at one end of the line), since Aux would not have sufficient movement distance, even spending one PIP each, to be able to do this.

As I say, I'm pretty certain this is what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to clarify, as I think some people think that if you have,say,a 5 deep column, then if the 2nd-5th ranks each spend a PIP, they can always expand into a 5 wide line; whereas in fact, there is no such provision in the rules; you must simply just make individual measured moves (unlike groups in line contracting).

John

[<Bob.>]

A line moving toward bad going can form a column on any of the elements, one moves forward, the others fall in behind but none can exceed its own legal move. This takes 1 PIP.

A column can reform into a line on any element in the column, with each element that moves needing a PIP. If three element column forms a line on the front element, then 2 pips if the front element does not move. If the front moves, then three pips

I think John has this all correct or as Andrew Jackson would write OK. No element can ever exceed its normal move. and it needs a pip to expand.

Note that if a column takes a group move out of bad going it continues that PIP move at the Bad going distance. If an element is allowed S&S move, then the second move can be at the good going rate because it is with a second PIP. So LH in Column moves out of the Bad Going at 200p, then for a pip each the elements can move as allowed up to 500p to then reform as a line, Front cannot really move the full 500p so the front element moves something less, the back elements move more than the front one to form up on the side. One PIP for each element that expands

[Nils Kullinger]

Is it universally accepted that you can only form a column for one PIP when you need to do so to enter BG or the like?

The rules say a group move can include forming "such a column", but that could refer either to a column in BG etc OR to any one element wide column. If it reffered to any column you could form a column anytime, anywhere.

[Dave Crowell]

There is another thread discussing this topic.

My own feeling is that the answer lies in the oft overlooked final sentence of the rule: "No other reductions or increases in frontage or changes in direction or facing can be made." The no other reductions would be redundant if the "such column" did not refer to the conditions of entering bad going or passing a gap.