BUA with road

[imported_Lee Shackelford]

Hello,

I was just finished playing 2 games of DBA with my friend Andrew Norrie. I chose Free Company and he replied with Feudal English.

He was defender and a BUA got placed on my left side of the battlefiled halfway up the side and about 2 inches in. The road went from his base edge THROUGH the BUA and all the way to my base edge. He put one of his horde elements in the BUA during his deployment.

Early on in the game..I attacked the BUA with 3 Bd elements supported by a Ps.....I took the BUA. A discussion then ensued. I rolled a 5 on my next turn, and I wanted to leave the first Bd in a a garrison and pass the other 2 Bds and Ps THROUGH the BUA....to get at his now-exposed right flank.

My thinking was that with the 5 roll, that then made the BUA mine with a garrison in it (even though "occupied" by me should be enough)and the second to last sentence in the ROAD part of the terrain explainations says I could pass troops through....even if the BUA is occupied by my friendly troops.

This was the first time we did not agree on some rules or come to some agreement.....so we just stopped the game and started a new game.

I told him I'd ask here for advice. DK or any other old hand want to give me the correct way it should have played out? Could I legally move the elements through the BUA?

Thanks

Lee Shackelford

PS The second game was very good..same armies after deployment and him switching positions of two pairs..he ended up with his 2 horde uphill against my Bd....his lack of a Ps lost him both Sp to my Kns..we both rode down 2 Bw elements and I lost a Kn when it failed to ride down the Bw and my Ps just saved one of my Bd vs a Kn of his elements...game 4-3 to me.

[ November 14, 2004, 09:35: Message edited by: Lee Shackelford ]

[imported_Richard Lee]

I looked at the first paragraph of page 7 of DBA v2.2. The last 2 sentences say:

"A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance. They cannot end the move inside unless it is not occupied by troops."

The blade element that beat the defenders should have been moved in automatically during the bound it won the combat. (See the last sentence of the last paragraph of "Combat Outcome" on page 11.)

If any of the other blade elements were already on the road they should have been able to move through the BUA on the road on your next bound, provided that 400 paces would have taken them through it and fully out the other side.

If any element was not already on the road and wanted to go through the BUA, their move would be at the normal (presumably good going) rate. For blades this is 200 paces. I have not seen your BUA but I imagine that it would be bigger than that, and so the blade element would not be able to go completely through it. This means that that blade element would not be able to enter the BUA that bound.

What it could do was get on the road outside the BUA ready to move through it on your next bound.

That is how I interpret the rules. However, there are more experienced people than myself on this forum.

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by Richard Lee:
I looked at the first paragraph of page 7 of DBA v2.2. The last 2 sentences say:

"A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance. They cannot end the move inside unless it is not occupied by troops."

If any element was not already on the road and wanted to go through the BUA, their move would be at the normal (presumably good going) rate. For blades this is 200 paces. I have not seen your BUA but I imagine that it would be bigger than that, and so the blade element would not be able to go completely through it. This means that that blade element would not be able to enter the BUA that bound.
The internal BUA distance is "free," so any of the blades that start on the road may move completely through the BUA.

This is what the portion of the rule that you cite means when it says:

"the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance"

Those that don't start on the road can't enter the BUA at all since another element already occupies it.

However, since combat happens after movement, the blade that wins combat and enters the BUA is the only one to do so that bound. On your subsequent bound any other elements can move through the BUA if they are on a road. They do not count any of the distance within the BUA as part of their move. THe element (blade) moves 400p along a road, and the BUA is 400p long from the road entrance to road exit, so the blade can move 800p total along the road (and through the BUA).

Of course I bow to any interpretation given by the Imperator, etc.

[ November 14, 2004, 14:56: Message edited by: jldiii ]

[<Bob..>]

Note that a BUA must be within 900 paces of two edges so one that is half way up seems to be 1200 from one edge.

When you beat the Horde, your Blade automatically entered the BUA. In the next bound you occupied the BUA and as a result of rolling a 5 your Bd became a garrison. That Bd could leave the BUA, for 2 PIPs in any direction. The other elements, assuming if on a road. can move through the BUA and not count the distance moved in the BUA. A Bd could move 50p to a road and then 50p along the road, zip thru the BUA and then move 100p on the other side. Or if on the road, make a full road move and not count the distance travelled in the BUA. If the BUA were 6 base depths long you move those 240mm for free. It does cost 2 PIPs to move an element or group through the BUA. You must move on the road, in and out.

Note that the BUA need only be occupied, not garrisoned.

I do not undersand what the disagreement was about. What did you opponent think you could not do?

[imported_Lee Shackelford]

Thanks all,

he stated that only one element could be in the BUA so if they were passing through, there would be more than one element "IN" the BUA....I read the rule which stated that other elements could pass through.....and he disagreed...

He didin't want them passing through

...especially since it would have been messy...2 Bd and Ps and the last 2 elements on his right were a Hd and a Bw ......

the situation might have been avoided if during deployment he had put a Sp in the BUA... harder to capture....I reread the rule for him regarding Hd in BUA dying without being doubled..but he didn't want to change smile.gif

He and I play very friendly games...we don't measure by micrometers.....if there is any doubt as to distances or such..we just ask the other how far does he think it should go smile.gif

We usually come to an agreement..in this case he wouldn't budge, so we just reset up the game with no BUA and agreed that I'd write for an answer

Thanks

Lee Shackelford

[xeswop]

What part of the rule did he disagree with?

"A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance. They cannot end the move inside unless it is not occupied by troops."

Clearly the rules says the BUA can be passed through when occupied, with the internal distance not being counted.

Did he question Phils sloppy grammer. A quick reading might suggest to someone that the elements do not need to be moving on the road, only that a BUA is across a road. Phil likes multiple subjects in a sentence. In the rule above the passive voice also adds to the confusion. One might think the rule means that if the BUA is across a road, then an element can move through it in any direction. There is no explit statement that the troops must move along the road. That is only implied by the phrase "distance being added to the normal road move distance." Thus we must assume the elements are moving on a road and the internal distance is added to that road move.

Might not the rule be better if written as below, (but far too long for Phil:)

"Troops can move along a road that is through a BUA even if is occupied, not necessarily garrisoned, by a friendly element. The movers do not count the internal distance moved in the BUA as this is added to the normal road move. The movers do not need to move entirely on the road outside the BUA but then must count only their normal movement, while still excluding the internal distance. Other than elements moving by road through a BUA, only one element at a time can be in a BUA. Moving into, out of or through a BUA costs an element or a group an extra PIP."

[ November 15, 2004, 11:55: Message edited by: Bob. ]

[Martin Smith]

Hi , just reawoke this thread, as it was discussed at the English Open.
Some said that the distance inside the BUA when passing through on a road has to be taken into account, and might require extra PIPs if the BUA was over 400 paces across.
Others (self included) say the internal distance in the BUA is ignored, and so e.g. if an element is 100 paces from the BUA, on road, and it moved its full 400 paces road move , it would emerge 300 paces outside the Bua on the opposite side.
Any further comments/ clarifications??
Martin

[David Kuijt]

Hi , just reawoke this thread, as it was discussed at the English Open.
Some said that the distance inside the BUA when passing through on a road has to be taken into account, and might require extra PIPs if the BUA was over 400 paces across.
Others (self included) say the internal distance in the BUA is ignored, and so e.g. if an element is 100 paces from the BUA, on road, and it moved its full 400 paces road move , it would emerge 300 paces outside the Bua on the opposite side.


p7, first paragraph, "A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance."

Normal road move distance = 400p. Passing across a 257p-wide BUA, as per the rule above, the road move is 657p.

You're right, they're wrong. This isn't a matter for debate -- the rules are clear. You can debate about what the rules SHOULD say if you like, but what they do say is that you can make a road move of 657p across a 257p BUA -- or, in other words, (Mathematically the same) you ignore the distance internal to the BUA when you are crossing a BUA on a road.

[Minimus Maximus]

Martin ... would that include the famous sideways road move by a single element?

[Martin Smith]

p7, first paragraph, "A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance."

Normal road move distance = 400p. Passing across a 257p-wide BUA, as per the rule above, the road move is 657p.

You're right, they're wrong. This isn't a matter for debate -- the rules are clear. You can debate about what the rules SHOULD say if you like, but what they do say is that you can make a road move of 657p across a 257p BUA -- or, in other words, (Mathematically the same) you ignore the distance internal to the BUA when you are crossing a BUA on a road.

Thanks for the reply, David.

p.s. Minimus is a stirrer !!!!!
Martin 'the crab'/ 'sidewinder' Smith

[Bob. (and his dog)]

Hi , just reawoke this thread, as it was discussed at the English Open.
Some said that the distance inside the BUA when passing through on a road has to be taken into account, and might require extra PIPs if the BUA was over 400 paces across.
Others (self included) say the internal distance in the BUA is ignored, and so e.g. if an element is 100 paces from the BUA, on road, and it moved its full 400 paces road move , it would emerge 300 paces outside the Bua on the opposite side.
Any further comments/ clarifications??
Martin

Further to this which was answered before and after Martin's question. There is a change from the earlier discussion. To support David's point, also see page 9 on Tactical Move Distances
"Distance is not measured when an element moves only to pivot
from overlapping an enemy element in close combat against friends to line up in close combat with that enemy element's flank, or for that part of a move that is between the centre of a BUA or camp and its edge. "

There has been lots of discussion on the first half of the rule, but the second part makes it very clear that a move from BUA edge to centre and then from centre to edge is not measured. This is in addition to the rule on Page 7

"A BUA across a road can be passed through by friendly troops even if occupied, the internal distance being added to the normal road move distance. They cannot end the move inside unless it is not occupied by troops."

So if the BUA is not occupied but is under your control, your element can move through it from edge to edge with no distance measured. An element already inside of a BUA can move out to the edge for no distance. One could move out, and another move in (and out).

If the BUA is occupied by one of your elements, then you can move through, only on a road, for no distance measured, doing a road move -- starting and ending on the road.

In any event, you pay 2 pips to move into, out of or through a BUA,.

[Dave Crowell]

Bob, it reads to me as if Phil's intent in "for that part of a move that is between the centre of a BUA or camp and its edge. " is not to state that an element may move from edge to centre for free. Phil is only stating that an element *occupying* (and there for nominally at the centre of) a camp or BUA can move to the edge for free. This means that an element moving out of a BUA or camp begins measuring movement from the edge of the BUA or camp, not from the actual starting position of the element.

Had Phil meant "a move from BUA edge to centre and then from centre to edge is not measured. " he could have much more simply written "Distance is not measured ... across a BUA or camp."

As it stands you are saying that an element can move across a camp for no movement cost as well. NB in each case Phil is listing BUA and camp together. There is also a strong implication that all movement across or within a BUA or camp is free.I doub t that this was Phil's intent.

[Bob. (and his dog)]

I believe that it is Phil's intent that Camps and BUA have no internal distance measured. The size of such items does not affect movement. There is complexity for elements moving in these, being out of command control so the extra PIP moving into, out of, or through a BUA.

Moreover I believe him when he writes "Distance is not measured ...for that part of a move that is between the centre of a BUA or camp and its edge. "

Distance is not measured between center and edge in any direction. This is his way of saying three things in one phrase. Between means: from edge to center, from center to edge and when combined, from edge to center to edge.

So there are two situations with a friendly BUA.
1. Move through when not occupied for no distance measured.
2. Move through when occupied on a road only for no distance measured.

[Dave Crowell]

I am not going to argue the point further.

It is a situation that arises very rarely in the games I have played. Most moves are into a camp or BUA to better defend it, not across it off-road to get to the other side. This tends to render the question moot in actual play.

And one more reason I would like to see Phil (or someone working with his blessing) clarify the current rules before adding new ones.

[David Kuijt]

Most moves are into a camp or BUA to better defend it, not across it off-road to get to the other side. This tends to render the question moot in actual play.

Hah! Not in Big Battle.

Ah, the glorious memories of dastardly tricks gone by! Swapping an artillery into a BUA; moving a whole command at road-speed through a BUA on what the enemy thought was the static flank of a Big Battle Doubles game! They were evil moves, and I know it, but the past still glows with the memory of our opponents being carried in strait-jackets, weeping uncontrollably, after some of the bastardly tricks possible with roads and BUAs in big battle.

Don't look for me in heaven in the next life -- the cruelty DS and I perpetrated in the period between the adoption of BUAs and their general abandonment will ensure I'm in a warmer climate.

[Dave Crowell]

Ah, David, truly you are the fountain of fiendishness.

I agree that using the on-road short cut through the BUA can be a fun trick.

I was commenting on the paucity of off-road movement across BUAs.

cheers.

[David Kuijt]

I was commenting on the paucity of off-road movement across BUAs.


Ah! My error -- I thought you meant on-road.