making contact

[xeswop]

I have been thinking of how strictly to interpret the rules for making contact.

One place this comes up is when a group moves sideways to align. The rules say:
"A group move can include reducing frontage to form such a column or to pass through a gap between terrain features or troops of at least 1 element base width, following a road, or moving up to half an element base width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead. "

The rule for making contact is:
"Other troops can move into contact with enemy elements only if a single element or at least one element of a group ends in both front edge and front corner-to-front corner, or full front edge to rear edge, contact with an enemy element or overlaps enemy already in close combat. "

I have said in the past that a group moving to contact an enemy group with which it is not aligned must move sideways to align before it makes contact. The sideways move of the group cannot begin until all of the group is within a base width distance. Thus the moving group could not contact the enemy not aligned and then, after the contact, slide left or right to make proper alignment.

I do not know if this subtle requirement makes any difference. The side ways move must be part of the maximum distance allowed. The sideways movement as part of the forward movement, prior to contact, actually takes less distance than the contact and slide so should be preferred by the mover. I would not disallow that movement.

I am just wondering if the forward move to contact and then the slide into alignment should also be allowed. The contact is not legal at the time of the contact is made but at least one element "ends" in in proper alignment. The contact rule says an element must "end" in contact.

Does anyone see a problem with the contact and slide that ends in proper alignment?

Note that in some cases, the moving sideways of the group to get one element aligned might seem to come into conflict with the crossing the front rule. If the elements being contacted have any gaps less than a base width, then all elements in the moving group might not be lining up to face the elements whose base width distance area they are in. The group move, with one element being aligned takes precedence because of the rule
"If there is a gap between enemy elements less than an element base width wide, some may be in edge but not corner-to-corner contact, so will not take part in combat this bound. "

If the group move were not allowed because of the crossing the front rule then this rule could not be applied with the group moving sideways rule.

[John Meunier]

Bob,

I'd love to comment, but I've been playing contact-then-slide all along. If I'm reading your post correctly, this is against your current interp.

I try to play the low-fiddle version in games. That's where you say - yeah, go ahead. i don't care.

I appreciate how much mental work you do to keep the game coherent.

John

[ October 27, 2004, 09:28: Message edited by: John Meunier ]

[Paul A. Hannah]

Originally posted by Bob.:
Does anyone see a problem with the contact and slide that ends in proper alignment?Nope. That works for me. smile.gif

[David Kuijt]

Lots of people play contact-then-slide, Bob. If you are already aligned then the distance is the same either way, so I don't really see this as a very important issue -- the rules don't seem to give an ordering where you must slide first, then contact, so long as you end in legal contact appropriately.

[John Meunier]

The time when I think this might come up is when you have friendly but non-moving elements that block or prevent you from sliding before contact.

[Parmenio]

Normally group moves can only be straight ahead or wheel from a corner.

Are you saying that, if the group is within one BWD, the group can move (and measure) diagonally so long as the group ends with a valid contact and the "sideways" portion of the diagonal move does not exceed one-half BWD?

Or is the distance you have to measure equal to the two sides of the right triangle, not the hypotenuse?

Or is measuring along the hypotenuse restricted to only single-element moves?

[ October 28, 2004, 15:38: Message edited by: Parmenio ]

[xeswop]

Not sure who the "you" referred to in the message below is but this is what Phil, et al say
A group move by road, or across bad going or across any but a paltry river, must be in a single element wide column. A group move can include reducing frontage to form such a column or to pass through a gap between terrain features or troops of at least 1 element base width, following a road,
or moving up to half an element base width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead.
Otherwise a group can only move straight ahead or wheel by pivoting around a front corner. No other reductions or increases in frontage or changes in direction or facing can be made.So to answer Parmenio's questions from what Phil has written:
"If the group is within one BWD, the group can move (and measure) diagonally so long as the group ends with a valid contact and the "sideways" portion of the diagonal move does not exceed one-half BWD?

Yes and no. No to "end up in contact", the move must only be toward lining up opposite. I suggest that you must first be lined up before make contact because contact must be legal when it is made. But is this too strict?

"Or is the distance you have to measure equal to the two sides of the right triangle, not the hypotenuse?"

You can do this if you want. All distance must be measured, there is no free sliding. Move the group "up to half an element base width sideways" as you move forward, along the hypotenuse of the right triangle.

The question I was trying to resolve is whether or not to allow a group to make contact, not full front edge to full front edge, and then slide left or right, less than a BWD to become aligned.

In general "must contact be legal when it is made."

The problem also exists for element moving into corner contact prior to a friend moving into frontal contact. You cannot be in corner contact (overlap) unless the enemy has one of your other elements in frontal contact.

Another case is when you move an element into front corner to corner contact with an enemy on the flank side and then move your element to contact the flank itself. At this point the element on the corner is not a legal contact but at the end of movement, when the enemy turns to face your element on the flank, your other element is now a legal overlapper.

AAA
AAA
AAA
AAA
XXXXCCCC
XXXXCCCC
XXXXCCCC


A faces right, X and C face up. All elements are 4 letters wide and 3 deep. C is not in a legal corner contact with A

AAAA
AAAA
AAAA
XXXXCCCC
XXXXCCCC
XXXXCCCC


After the turn, C is now a legal overlapper.

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Bob.:
I suggest that you must first be lined up before make contact because contact must be legal when it is made. But is this too strict?Too strict, Bob. Suppose I have two pairs of elements (four total) facing the same way with 10mm gap in the center; the enemy moves a group of three elements in to attack my leftmost pair of elements, so their leftmost element is an overlap due to the 10mm gap and is in contact (not a combat contact) with one of my right pair of elements. OK so far -- all legal. But if you say "contact must be legal when it is made", then you will stop me from moving in my bound, sliding my rightmost pair of elements as a group move to align with the enemy (and close the 10mm gap), because all of that move is illegal contact until the end. But the rule doesn't say "contact must be legal when it is made" -- that's your interp. The rule says it must END in combat (overlap, etc.) -- page 9, 4th paragraph. So you can slide through all sorts of contact (subject to the ZOC rules and restrictions) so long as you END in combat (or overlap, etc. etc.).

[xeswop]

David brings the most important question. When is the END.
1. When an element makes initial contact
2. When a player says his element has finished its move or has moved the elment as far as allowed.
3. When a player says he has finished all optional movement in his movement phase and the opponent has made all required response moves.

Sliding from partial to full front edge contact has always been allowed for individual Ps and LH partially contacted by a group and for elements that start the bound in partial contact, left over from the opponent's move or an outcome.

I seen no advantage gained or lost by allowing elements to move into contact and then slide. The sideways movement can be made at any point after entering the enemy Base Width Distance Area, inside .001 mm or in actual contact. The diagonal move does take less distance.

My intitial comments on this movement issue were influenced by HOTT and DBM, as there was indication that the sideways movment was diagonal. If if makes no difference if there is contact and slide then why worry about it. Then all cases of slide in contact fit under one rule.

I do, however, think that contact must be legal at the end of each element's move. So I would pick 2 from the list above.

[John Meunier]

Originally posted by Bob.:
David brings the most important question. When is the END.

3. When a player says he has finished all optional movement in his movement phase and the opponent has made all required response moves.

Does this mostly come into play when you move into a corner contact or side edge contact in such a way that when the enemy turns to face a different element you will be providing an overlap to this final position?

I see that the strict reading of the rules would support outlawing this kind of move, but I don't undertand the argument based on the real-world. I don't see how this abstracts anything real.

In other words, why not let people make contacts that are not legal until the enemy element turns to face?

John

[xeswop]

Historical precedent aside, I want to understand what the rules are. If we ask for every rule to be based on history we are in trouble. Phil adds some rules to control the playing of the game. Ours not to reason why.

The point raised below by John is just the one I am wondering about. There are two specific rules that involve contacts.

"Other troops can move into contact with enemy elements only if
a single element or at least one element of a group
1. ENDS in
a. both front edge and front corner-to-front corner,
b. or full front edge to rear edge, contact with an enemy element
2. or OVERLAPS enemy already in close combat. "

The first component says the element must END in one of the required positions. As David K points out, this can be at the end of the elements full move, not at the moment of contact.

Point 2 says that a move is legal if an element overlaps an enemy that is already in a legal close combat position, with is full front edge, corner to corner contat. This is not a contact that is controlled by the verb ENDS so must be legal at the moment of contact, note the use of the verb "overlaps."

So two situations arise that we should consider.
An element ends it move in only corner to corner contact but not an overlap as Diagram 1 below
Diagram 1
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/bmc/nonlegaltolegal_files/image003.png

Y is not in a legal contact in the top example, at the end of its movement but it is at the end of all required moves. Why not allow it. What if Y were moved first and then the player decided not to move the flanker into contact? Would that be reason to make the player take back the corner contact move? That gets messy, where did it come from. More important, why does phil say the element must end in legal contat. Do we think he means ends the movement phase or just the end of the element's move.

Is there anyone who objects to a player making the illegal contat that is legal at the end of all movment? Is it ok to "setup" an overlap? I think I will ask this of the players at DBC next week.

The overlap issue is a little different. Can a player move an element into overlap position but not with an element in frontal contact. That is clearly no. There must be frontal contact prior to the move to overlap.

[Dave Crowell]

Bob,

I do not think it is legal to "set up" an overlap as element Y in your top example. For what ever reasons Phil has set up the game to follow certain procedures and timing of events. I feel that an element moving into contact must end its move in legal contact.

As for the sideways slide by a group, I think it is legal to either move forward then slide, slide then move forward, or move along the hypotenuse. Phil's rules do not state how the sideways slide by a group of elements is to be carried out, only that it must end in a legal position and the sideways distance cannot exceed 1/2 base width.

I vote for end being when the player declares that he is finished moving the element or group. Like taking your finger off the piece in chess.

[Hannibal Ad Portas]

Our group has always taken the group slide as a free move. I think it was intended that way and makes good sense.....after all, the groups are already so close to contact anyway and the intent is for combat and the game is meant to be quick and simple! It will be a shame if it is the wrong thing to do.....we have always found it works well this way.

[xeswop]

Originally posted by Hannibal Ad Portas:
Our group has always taken the group slide as a free move. I think it was intended that way and makes good sense.....after all, the groups are already so close to contact anyway and the intent is for combat and the game is meant to be quick and simple! It will be a shame if it is the wrong thing to do.....we have always found it works well this way. What do you mean by "free move?" You cannot move an extra 20mm over and above your maximum move to line up. There are only two exceptions given to the max move distances, overlap to flank and in and out of BUA. The rules clearly state
"the maximum distance between the starting point of any base corner of a single element or any element of a group and that corner's final position is: "

Had Phil intended an extra 20mm of movment to line up to be free, he would have included it with the other exceptions.

Players can always have house rules to add to their enjoyment of the game but in competitive play there are no free moves except the two mentioned above.

[Hannibal Ad Portas]

Bob Beattie wrote:
"I seen no advantage gained or lost by allowing elements to move into contact and then slide. The sideways movement can be made at any point after entering the enemy Base Width Distance Area, inside .001 mm or in actual contact. The diagonal move does take less distance."

Okay then....if the slide isn't free movement..and if we go strictly by the rules....then I have no idea where anyone finds language to support diagonal group movement into contact. Diagonal movement is not sideways movement and I think that is clear. If diagonal group movement were allowed, then contact could be made in less distance and that could be a critical move in a game. So what is the answer? I go for the sideways move at cost. Makes sense. The diagonal move as a sideways move makes no sense to me.

Also, where is it clearly stated that the sideways move can take place within a ZOC? If it were an exception to crossing an element's front, then I would have thought the sideways group move would have been included under that section. I would think you would have to do the sideways move prior to being in the ZOC.

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Hannibal Ad Portas:

Also, where is it clearly stated that the sideways move can take place within a ZOC? If it were ...Page 8, second-last paragraph, lines 3 and 4.

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by Bob.:
1) Is there anyone who objects to a player making the illegal contat that is legal at the end of all movment? Is it ok to "setup" an overlap? I think I will ask this of the players at DBC next week.

2) The overlap issue is a little different. Can a player move an element into overlap position but not with an element in frontal contact. That is clearly no. There must be frontal contact prior to the move to overlap. I have only been to 2 tournaments, Origins 2004 and ATC 2003, so I can't claim to be an expert in tournament play. But as a more casual player, I would still like to answer both questions.

1) I don't object to a player making a move as long as it is legal after movement is complete.

2) I think it's OK to set up an overlap. By extension, I think it's OK to set up a flank (or even rear) attack as well. I just play that the first element to contact an enemy element is the front element. Later elements are the flankers (per p10 para 2 line 4). I'll leave the discussion of setting up only an overlap (and not frontal contact) to the end.

As far as sliding is concerned, I don't require any measurement of movement other than what it takes to create front edge contact. If an element or group is 10mm to the left, I don't think one should have to measure either that or the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the forward movement and lateral sliding. My justification is as follows: first, diagonal movement is strictly prohibited (too bad, because it would solve many problems to just go ahead and allow it, although I understand historical justifications for prevention).
Second, I see the "sliding" as being equivalent to all other forms of conformative movement, so it is not part of regular movement (and therefore doesn't cost anything). So I play that after all movement by one side has been completed, than all conformative movement happens: Ps and LH conformation, individual and group conformation, turns to a flank/rear attack, etc. If an element is in a legal position after all this is complete, than I think its fine.

By designing a game where elements must be exactly lined up for adjudication of combat, and given units aren't moving square by square on a grid, there has to be a mechanism for getting elements into legal contact. There are already allowances for movement in the interests of simplicity and playability such as measuring wheels as straight line corner point distances instead of actual curves. If everyone checked all movements to the nearest part of a millimeter, there would always be sliding and difficulty. I've played with a couple of mm players, and it's just more tedious than the game is worth.

Setting up only an overlap (corner to corner contact). In general I don't have problems with this, but as you can see above I am pretty relaxed in general with these types of interpretations. Depending on one's interpretation of BWD, it makes the relationship between the units clear, ie the moving player is placing the enemy element in his BaseWidthDistance (if one plays that the side edges count for BWD). Certainly within the context of the came and combat results units can end up in corner to corner contact. For example when two groups of two elements contact each other and opposite elements are eliminated/flee, leaving the two remaining elements in corner contact. How are these units allowed to move in subsequent bounds?
Before movement:
AABB

CCDD

Initial Contact:
AABB
CCDD

After Combat:
AA
DD

I would have no problem with DD moving into corner contact with AA on it's own because any subsequent movement by AA or DD would be proscribed under the same conditions as would apply after combat between AABB and CCDD.

Perhaps this isn't legal, but it does have the advantage of the players knowing what movement is allowed (assuming they have the same BWD interpretation). I see a move like this as being similar to a player saying "my element is a BWD from your element" or "my element has one corner in the bad going" at the end of moving a particular element so that each player understands the relationship of the elements with each other or the terrain. While I personally think that having 3 quare mm of an element in Bad Going is pretty cheesy and not really reflective of the status of the unit, for game purposes the player has clarified the situation or me, which is important when his wood terrain feature edge is composed of lichen droppings.

So I say let them slide for free! and as long as the contact is legal after all conformative movement, let it happen. If you play with me I'll even let corner to corner contact happen. Maybe not the best tournament answer, but it sure makes the game easier.

If I get my historiography paper written, I'll be at DBC in person to tell you so. (But I'm not getting my hopes up, as I have 11 more books to read.)

[imported_JamesLDIII]

OK, my little letter example didn't come out right, but it was supposed to look like this at the end of combat:

--AA----
----DD--

AA and DD are only in corner contact.

[xeswop]

1. Groups can move in three ways
a. straight forward
b. pivot forward on one front corner
c. move sideways

The last option can be done only in a special situation.
It can be done to line up with enemy within a base width ahead.

Not mentioned in the rules but must be assumed.
1. What part of the group must be within a base width of the enemy?
Assumption: the front edge of all elements in the group.
2. What constitutes sideways?
a. My Webster's dictionary defines "sideways" as "towards one side, laterally, obliquely"
b. In all the other DBx rules the sideways move is to be diagonal but then those rules have no relevance for DBA. While the rules do not, the definition of "sideways" should be the same in all usages.
c. The DBA rules say that except in certain stated exceptions, "... a group can only move straight ahead or wheel by pivoting around a front corner."
So, "sideways" is very open and can be considered as any direction other than straight ahead. There is no statement that sideways must be only in the direction of a side edge of the movers. A sideways move can be at any angle between moving in the direction the mover faces and moving in the direction of its side edge, as long as the move increases the mover's alignment with the enemy.

Movement distance
The rules clearly state that elements have certain maximum distances that they are allowed to move, per PIP expended. There are two exceptions
1. moving from overlapping an enemy with a friend in frontal contact to flanking that enemy.
2. moving into, thru, and out of a BUA or camp.

Sliding to conform with an enemy is not an exception. You cannot make a maximum move with an element so that it just makes minimum front contact with an enemy element and then freely slide another 150 paces across the front to make a legal frontal contact. A blade cannot move 350 paces. Nor can you slide a half a base width, an extra 75paces to make full contact.

Moving into overlap contact
The rules clearly state that you cannot move into an overlap position unless the enemy element is already in a frontal combat contact.

The rules are silent on the case of an element moving into a legal frontal contact that also puts the mover into an overlap with an element not in frontal contact. Here we must assume that frontal contact takes precedence over the overlap one. This is shown in the bottom example in the diagram below.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/dba/bobcmts04_files/image016.gif

Players are free to do whatever they want, My goal is to understand what the rules mean, first. Then people can deviate if they want.

I look forward to discussion based on what is written in the rules, to help us better understand what they mean.

PS. Elements left in corner to corner contact after combat is not an issue being addressed by any of this discussion. We are considering elements moving into contact. Elements in corner to corner contact at the end of combat are pretty much free to move as they wish.

[ November 01, 2004, 09:32: Message edited by: Bob. ]

[imported_JamesLDIII]

I will preface by saying I am looking at my 2.0 rules that don't have 2.2 changes annotated. So if I have therfore misquoted, please draw that to my attention.

Bob,
I would like to address your third point:

c. move sideways
The last option can be done only in a special situation. It can be done to line up with enemy within a base width ahead.

DK cited the line which I quote below.

"A group move can include...or moving up to half an element base width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead." 8-9-2 (page, para, line)

I haven't thought of this until now, but looking at the sentence could easily result in the followng interpretation by me.

When two groups of elements face one another, but are not lined up exactly, the following must happen:

A side must perform sideways movement to line up with the enemy element(s) before closing with the enemy group. Therefore, the moving player always makes a legal contact. (and therefore his group never really has to "conform" to the stationary group because they already did so by conducting the sideways move.

By interpreting movement this way, I can perfectly agree that one must measure both the sideways movement portion and the forward into contact portion of movement as part of the total. If I were to interpret the rules this way, one could dispense completely with the idea of sliding as part of a conformation.

However, I certainly didn't see the rules adjudicated like this in practice, either at ATC or Origins. In every game I played in, I or my opponent measured the move to create edge contact, and then conformed the moving group at the end of movement (not counting the distance).

Second, this doesn't take into account the statement in the following line of the MOVING INTO CONTACT WITH ENEMY paragraph on page 9.

"Psiloi in good going or Light Horse which are contacted by an enemy group conform to it unless themselves part of a group. In all other cases, the movig side conforms."

What are the other cases in which the moving side conforms? I rooted around for a couple minutes in my rulebook and couldn't come up with any. The only way I understand this sentence (outside of Ps and Lh conformation) is if the author makes a presumption that after contact there would be some form of conformation necessary. No such conformation is needed if I interpret the group movement as I did earlier above. Therefore, I conclude that there must be some allowance made for a group to contact another while not completely aligned.

I have always considered the "sliding" after contact to be part of a conformation, and therefore not subject to move distance limitations. I can see how the alternate interpretation could be made. And with that "alternate" interpretation, I could also support costing the move as the sum of both the lateral and forward distance. Even better to my mind in that sort of interpretation would be forcing such a sideways move before any contact is made to fulfill the requirements in MOVING TO CONTACT WITH ENEMY paragraph, to wit,

"Other troops can move into contact iwth enemy elements only if a single element or at least one element of a group ends in both front edge and front corner-to-corner, or full front edge to rear edge, contact iwth an enemy element or overlaps enemy already in close combat."

But having ruled out the necessity of a statement concerning conformity by the moving group, why do I see one at the end of the same paragraph? For that matter, why have the rules for conformity of Ps and Lh at all? If a player has to make a legal contact (edge and corner), then there should never be a situation in which the Ps or LH have to "conform." If one counters my argumen by citing the idea of elements lined up with gap less than an element base width between each other, why have a special circumstance in which Ps and Lh conform, but others don't?

One can speculate on what Phil meant, but of course that is fruitless (unless you get an email back from him). I love the DBA commentaries for providing the diagrams (as you did in your post) that should have been in the rules. As far as tournaments go, I'll play by whatever the standard rule interp is. But I agree with Hannibal Ad Portas. At the end of movement (after elements have conformed), if the elements are in legal contact it's all good. By what I saw being played, conformation is considered by players not to cost any movement. If it is, then my money says pay for the sideways and forward cost, not diagonal cost. Otherwise just allow diagonal/obique movemen and not worry about it any more.

[Hannibal Ad Portas]

jldiii wrote:

"But I agree with Hannibal Ad Portas. At the end of movement (after elements have conformed), if the elements are in legal contact it's all good. By what I saw being played, conformation is considered by players not to cost any movement."

Yep...that is how I have seen it played on so many occasions. Now there is a different interpretation. I don't know which is correct. I guess adding 20mm to movement isn't going to always be critical, but it certainly could be. I would like to hear what Phil intended on this one. My guess is that once groups collided in reasonably close proximity, he wanted them to conform and just get on with it!

[xeswop]

If Phil had intended that elemenets do not measure the distance from moving into partial contact and sliding to achieve full frontal contct, or flank or rear contact then he would have included that in the list of items that do not require measurement. Why would that type of move be free and not included in the list.

Many times I, and am sure many of us, have been able to get a moving element to just touch an enemy's flank but we have not had enough move to make full contact. All we needed was just another 10mm and we'd have that flank contact. Phil did not intend a free slide for the mover to conform.

A moving element measures from where it starts to where it ends, in general, so if it starts just opposite to the right front of an enemy, inside the base width distance area, then it can measure the diagonal distance to the enemy's far corner.

Perhaps there is confusion with the moving process. You do not need to measure a path that an element might take: a move straight into contact and then a "slide" to the left or right. You can follow that path if you like but you measure the maximum distance any corner moved.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/bmc/movecontact_files/image001.gif


The situation with Light Horse and Ps conforming to a moving group is a special case and need not interfere with the discussion of normal moving situations. This is the one exception to the need for the MOVING element or group to make a legal contact with the enemy (conform). The non-moving elements do not have to move to line up with the mover in all cases but the Ps and LH one. I am sure we have all seen beginners move up to and touch an enemy and tell the opponet to now slide over.

The crucial thing to remember is that you cannot exceed your maximum allowed distance for each element and that you only need to measure from where a corner starts to where it ends.

[Terry37]

I am certainly no expert on the rules and consider myself a novice. However, when I can't make it to the game shop to battle the local tribes across the table I enjoy playing DBA on line, and it allows one to contact and slide, but within linitatoins, which I suspect are based on total distance moved. Terry

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by Bob.:

A moving element measures from where it starts to where it ends, in general, so if it starts just opposite to the right front of an enemy, inside the base width distance area, then it can measure the diagonal distance to the enemy's far corner.

Perhaps there is confusion with the moving process. You do not need to measure a path that an element might take: a move straight into contact and then a "slide" to the left or right. You can follow that path if you like but you measure the maximum distance any corner moved.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/bmc/movecontact_files/image001.gif

The crucial thing to remember is that you cannot exceed your maximum allowed distance for each element and that you only need to measure from where a corner starts to where it ends. I think the problem with this, especially for beginners, is it is counterintuitive, at least when one talks about group movement.

An individual unit can move in any direction, with movement counting as the furthest that any corner moves. That is easy to understand.

What is not easy to understand, is when a group moves. What you are saying (if I understand you correctly) is a group move to contact (when the group does not start lined up facing the enemy) measures the angled distance that the elements travel. But the rules specifically prohibit "diagonal" movement by groups. So the player is presented with measuring a diagonal move to determine whether he can make contact with his group, even though the units are not allowed to make a diagonal move. The practical method of measuring which you present (diagonal measurement) looks just like a diagonal movement which is prohibited by the rules. (If it looks like a duck, moves like a duck...) So a player can easily interpret group movement toward contact as being straight ahead, sliding once contact is made (either for free as I and most players I know interpreted it, or at cost as you have described), because this is the only apparent way to get around the problem of diagonal movement prohibition. How many players will see the angled distance you depict in the diagram above as a diagonal move made by a player?

Measuring diagonal movement of a group when it's prohibited from moving diagonally just doesn't make sense.

I see the following options available:

A) group movement as counting both the straight ahead and slide move, ie straight sides of the triangle

B) couting only the straight ahead move and getting the slide for free

C) require the group to line up prior to making contact, in which case you either do "A" or your move can only be to line up facing the enemy, with an approach to contact allowed in subsequent bounds

D) allow group diagonal movement, and measure the corner to corner move.

E) move straight ahead, slide elements, but measure the corner to corner, ie diagonal movement (hypotenuse of the triangle). (This is what I understand to be your position).

B is done often in practice but would be more flexible than individual movement, so I would agree that it's out. C and A are similar, but C alleviates many problems generated by the need to contact an element legally, so I think it is preferred over A. D requires a rules change (unlikely to happen), but it is the easiest to implement and understand. I have already said I think E is not a good idea.

My vote is for A or C. I do not think measuring group moves in a diagonal manner is a good idea without a rule change.

[ November 12, 2004, 12:18: Message edited by: jldiii ]

[xeswop]

JD writes
What is not easy to understand, is when a group moves. What you are saying (if I understand you correctly) is a group move to contact (when the group does not start lined up facing the enemy) measures the angled distance that the elements travel. But the rules specifically prohibit "diagonal" movement by groups. So the player is presented with measuring a diagonal move to determine whether he can make contact with his group, even though the units are not allowed to make a diagonal move. The practical method of measuring which you present (diagonal measurement) looks just like a diagonal movement which is prohibited by the rules. (If it looks like a duck, moves like a duck...) So a player can easily interpret group movement toward contact as being straight ahead, sliding once contact is made (either for free as I and most players I know interpreted it, or at cost as you have described), because this is the only apparent way to get around the problem of diagonal movement prohibition. How many players will see the angled distance you depict in the diagram above as a diagonal move made by a player?
The premise of the text above is that rules specifically prohibit "diagonal" movement by groups.

This is not true.

There is no reference to groups not moving diagonally. There is a rule about a group being able to move diagonally, or sideways, in special circumstances. Lets follow the actual rules on this


[I'll take out the text not related to the question at hand]

"A group move can include ... moving up to half an element base width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead. "

So a group can move sideways. Sideways can be diagonal, not just straight to the side. A sideways move can be oblique. Note the text below which says any direction except straight ahead is covered as a sideways move.


"Otherwise a group can only move straight ahead or wheel by pivoting around a front corner. No other reductions or increases in frontage or changes in direction or facing can be made."

Note the OTHERWISE. Other than moving NOT STRAIGHT AHEAD to line up with an enemy, the group must move straight ahead except for some other exceptions such as following a road.

So do D. among the options in the message below.

Pehaps in the next edition, Phil will use the wording in the now non-relevant HOTT that makes the whole thing clear:

"A group move can include
Moving up to half an element base width sideways to line up with enemy within 1 element base width ahead. Troops are not permitted extra tactical move distance to allow this, but the distance moved should be measured diagonally"

Even though HOTT is not relevant to DBA, this procedure seems to cover what the DBA rules say. I see no reason why they cannot be applied to cover any DBA omissions, rather than try to just read things into the DBA rules that are not there.

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Well I guess if I played HOTT I wouldn't be worrying about this at all...

Thanks for the clarification. While Phil may like to say don't take interpretations from the other rule sets, that HOTT clarification is just the thing needed (for me anyway).