Littoral Landing Into Bad Going

[Chris Brantley]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered before and/or if this comes across as a dunce question. Is it possible to do a Littoral Landing into bad going terrain?

My first thought on reviewing the rules was that since a Littoral Landing is a 1 PIP group move, it must be illegal since group moves are not permitted in bad going.

Then I remembered that group moves are permitted in bad going if the group is a one element wide march column. But a littoral landing force must end up with two elements touching the waterway edge.

After muddling it over, it seems to me that you could land a littoral force in bad going in a march column with all four elements having their right or left flank edges touching the water (i.e. marching parallel to the water). This would satisfy both the Littoral rule and the Movement in Bad Going rule.

Opens up some interesting tactics for low aggression, littoral armies with bad going troops.

[Paul A. Hannah]

Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
...it seems to me that you could land a littoral force in bad going in a march column with all four elements having their right or left flank edges touching the water (i.e. marching parallel to the water). This would satisfy both the Littoral rule and the Movement in Bad Going rule.That interpretation makes sense to me.

When I first read this, I thought the issue might be moot since I thought there would have to be a one-base-width gap between the bad going and the waterway. Not so. That gap rule only mandates a gap between Area Terrain Features, but does not apply to Linnear Terrain Features. So, bad going can indeed come up to a Waterway's edge (as they certainly do in reality).

Again, I think your reading of the rules is correct. The effect of it, of course, is that placement of bad going cannot block a littoral landing.

While we're on the topic, there is one small contradiction in the rules regarding littoral landings: One can land 1-4 elements with at least two touching the waterway's edge. How can two elements be touching the waterway if I land just one element. D'oh! Obviously, common sense takes over here. smile.gif

[ October 22, 2004, 05:12: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

[Andrechin]

Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
My first thought on reviewing the rules was that since a Littoral Landing is a 1 PIP group move, it must be illegal since group moves are not permitted in bad going.
I do not think this is a move, but a delayed deployment. Since you are allowed to deploy any kind of group in bad going, I do not see a limitation here.

[Chris Brantley]

Originally posted by Andrechin:
I do not think this is a move, but a delayed deployment. Since you are allowed to deploy any kind of group in bad going, I do not see a limitation here. The question arises because the rules (p.8) say that a Littoral landing is "a 1 PIP group move in its first bound."

Then you've got the limitations on group movement in bad going (must be in single element wide column) combined with the limitations of littoral landings (at least two of the four elements must be touching the water). But I think you are right, there is no prohibition of such a move, as long as you do it legally. I think the only legal way to do it is to deploy in the bad going as a column with one of your flanks touching the water. But I could be missing something, as I often do.

[xeswop]

Consider the full text:
"If any side's home topography is LITTORAL, it can reserve 0-4 elements to be placed together anywhere on an existing waterway edge (at least 2 touching it) as a 1 PIP group move in its 1st bound."

The rule is that 0-4 elements can "BE PLACED TOGETHER ANYWHERE on an existing waterway edge..." There is no reference to moving, just to placing. This is done "AS" a 1 PIP group move. It is not a move, it is done as a 1 PIP group move. That means it costs only 1 PIP and the elements must be placed in a group position. If this is done with more than 1 element, then at least 2 must be touching the waterway edge. I can imagine what Phil would say to the question of how to place two touching if you use just one element. smile.gif

A very important thing to rememeber is that the elements CANNOT move after being placed unless eligible for second moves. For 1 PIP you just get to place the group along the waterway.

Thus the group move restriction does not apply until you actually move the group.

In theory, you could place Artillery or WWg in bad going with this option. They can be deployed or placed in bad going, they just cannot move in such.

[ October 22, 2004, 11:30: Message edited by: Bob. ]

[Chris Brantley]

Bob..I'm not sure that you can read one part of the sentence in isolation from the other. It says "placed....as a 1 PIP group move."

The sentence labels it as a "group move", so I'm not sure what the basis is for interpreting that it not a "group move" as stated, but some kind of unique deployment placement not subject to applicable movement rules. Just trying to follow your injunction that the rules should be read and applied literally.

[imported_Bryanmd]

Chris, doesn't a waterway require a beach, or space of good going along it's border?? (Gee, you think I would bring my ruleset to work....).

Is a waterway really a linear feature? Doesn't it fluctuate between 2 and 4 inches in from the side of the board? Isn't it really an extension of the side of the board as it is impassible?? This may be really picky weirdness on my part.

I have played that there has to be space between the rough going and the waterway, just like a board edge.

Geeze, can rough terrain touch the edge of the board? (I swear, I have read the rules!! I am living in a state of Barkerian Encephalopathy).

Sorry this is confused and my views are not supported from text, but rather from my flawed memory.

Bryan

[xeswop]

Consider the crucial part of the sentecne -- PLACED TOGETHER ...AS a 1PIP group move. AS = like or in the same manner. The placement is done in the manner of a group move. "Elements are a group if facing in the same direction with each in both edge and corner contact with another. "

There is not a MOVE such as noted in the group move restriction.

"A group move by road, or across bad going or across any but a paltry river, must be in a single element wide column. "

There is NO move "across bad going." There is a placement of a group into bad going as a group for 1 PIP.

There is NO move, the specific procedure of a littoral landing is done with the restrictions of a group move for the element placement and it costs 1 PIP.

Do not assume the elements somehow leave the water and slide into the bad going. Littoral landing is, as Andrechin says, part of Deployment. The elements are PLACED on the battlefield where you want them. If they move into the bad going, where are the boats they came from?

Just put the elements, in a group formation, with at least two touching the waterway for 1 PIP. DO NOT MOVE THEM.


Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
Bob..I'm not sure that you can read one part of the sentence in isolation from the other. It says "placed....as a 1 PIP group move."

The sentence labels it as a "group move", so I'm not sure what the basis is for interpreting that it not a "group move" as stated, but some kind of unique deployment placement not subject to applicable movement rules. Just trying to follow your injunction that the rules should be read and applied literally.

[ October 22, 2004, 12:29: Message edited by: Bob. ]

[Chris Brantley]

Bob, I have no problem playing with your interpretation...I just don't understand your logic. The language is plain. The "placement" is executed as a 1 pip "group move." What your interpretation implies is that the words "group move" have a different meaning when used in the section on deployment than they do in the section on tactical moves. I can live with that, but would argue that this interpretion runs counter to the erstwise emphasis on literal interpretation of the text.

Moreover, if its just a placement for purposes of deployment (which generally doesn't cost pips in the non-littoral context) and not a group move from ship to shore, then why does it cost a movement pip? Isn't the purpose of the 1 pip penalty to simulate that movement?

[David Kuijt]

Another point to support Bob's interp -- the rules on moving through bad going in a column are for moving through bad going. No movement is happening here -- no movement distance is involved, for one thing. I'd go farther, but I haven't got the rules in front of me to quote the section on moving in bad going.

[Chris Brantley]

The tactical movement rule reads: "A group move by road, or across bad going, or across any but a paltry river, must be in a single element wide column."

Again, my point is...if the littoral rule says you place as a 1 PIP "group move", then why isn't this group move restriction applicable when landing in bad going? Bob says it doesn't because it is a deployment, not a movement, but the rest of the littoral landing sentence defines the deployment (i.e. "placement") as a group move.

You could argue that the Littoral elements are not moving "across" the bad going when they are placed. But then again, logically a littoral landing simulates a movement from ship to shore, which in the case of our example involves actual movement across bad going terrain.

At this point some people may wonder what the significance of this interpretation dispute is. As I read the landing rules, it means that a littoral landing into bad going can only be done in a one element wide column with the edges of one side of the elements parallel to and touching the water. But if you interpret the "placement as a group move" as a type of deployment not subject to group move restrictions, then you can littorally deploy any way you like in the bad going, as long as two elements are touching the water. The bad going movement restriction would only come into play the next bound when you actually start moving.

From a players point of view, the difference is probably not worth the debate, but I'm in a fussy mood I guess and struggling with how to read the rules, if not literally.

[ October 22, 2004, 14:06: Message edited by: Chris Brantley ]

[Pthomas]

I place two blade and two HCh in two columns on the waterway with the blades in front and the HCh behind. If it is a move then my blade have moved illegally more then 2" from the edge of the water.

If it is a deployment that costs 1 pip, then it is legal.

In Chris' example, if it is a group move from the waterway then you can not possibly put the left or right edges to the water as the only way to make such a move would be by 4 individual element moves costing 4 pips.

I think it is clear from what you are allowed to do with a littorial deployment that it is a deployment that has a 1 pip cost to offset the supposed advantage of making this littoral deployment. It is definitely not a move. There are too many things that you can do that violate other move rules.

[Chris Brantley]

Originally posted by Pthomas:
I place two blade and two HCh in two columns on the waterway with the blades in front and the HCh behind. If it is a move then my blade have moved illegally more then 2" from the edge of the water.That's a good point, although there are other circumstances in the rules where your elements can get pushed forward or backward without regard to their movement allowance in order to make space.

In Chris' example, if it is a group move from the waterway then you can not possibly put the left or right edges to the water as the only way to make such a move would be by 4 individual element moves costing 4 pips.Why? The argument makes sense if the only way to deploy is with your back to the water since my interpret then requires a right or left hand turn. But the Littoral Landing rule lets you face the waterway anyway you want when placed, the only requirement is that you be in a group and that at least two of the elements touch the waterway. Why not in a march column with one flank edge touching (in order to satisfy the requirements for moving through bad going)?

I'm not sure I follow your logic about individual moves being required. Your elements are landing as a group. Group moves are permitted at a cost of 1 pip in bad going if a single element wide column. It is deploying into the bad going in a single element wide column, so why should its movement as a group cost 4 pips?

[xeswop]

This is a very useful discussion of this cryptic little rule.

Yes, below Chris has cited the rule for MOVING across bad going. Do you see in this rule any statement about placing a littoral landing group?

This rule does not say that a group move placement into bad going in the first bound as part of a littoral landing must be in a single element wide column. The littoral landing rule is about a group move placement onto the battlefield, it is not about moving across bad going.

No move across anything. The rule quoted below is about moving across bad going. A littoral landing is just a putting elements into bad going.

Chris started the thread by asking a question that is not actually correct
"Is it possible to do a Littoral Landing into bad going terrain"
The proper question is Is it possible to place elements for a littoral landing into bad going." You do not "DO" a littoral landing, in the sense of putting troops on the beach and moving them into position. It is not like D-Day. There is no movement of elements. You just place the elements where you want them.

Again, Chris wrote:
"...a Littoral Landing is a 1 PIP group move"
A Littoral landing is not a 1 PIP group move." It is a placement of elements like a group move. It is not a group move because there is no movement.

Of course this problem with understanding is due to Phil's short cut style of writing. He could have been more expansive in the definition. In the next edition we will have to ask him to clarify that a Littoral Landing is just an extension of deployment, like dismounting, but that must be done in in the first bound, and so must have a cost and is meant to be just a placement of the elements, in a group structure anywhere on an existing waterway (not on a non-existing one:) ) Or does he mean you cannot add a waterway at that time.

"If any side's home topography is LITTORAL, it can reserve 0-4 elements to be placed together anywhere on an existing waterway edge (at least 2 touching it) as a 1 PIP group move in its 1st bound."

Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
The tactical movement rule reads: "A group move by road, or across bad going, or across any but a paltry river, must be in a single element wide column."

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by Chris Brantley:
[QUOTE] I'm not sure I follow your logic about individual moves being required. Your elements are landing as a group. Group moves are permitted at a cost of 1 pip in bad going if a single element wide column. It is deploying into the bad going in a single element wide column, so why should its movement as a group cost 4 pips? Chris,

It is my understanding, that your position is, that a littorial landing is a group move and must therefore fall within the rules of group movement. I may be incorrect.

I am saying unless you are landing LH, that it is impossible for a group to end their group move with their flanks against the water unless they use four pips and move as four individual elements (which is not a group move). There is not enough movement to land your leading element of your column turn 90 degrees and move far enough for all elements to enter as a group move.

You have also stated that elements can be deployed facing the water. How can that be accomplished as a group move? in good or bad going? Unless you are saying it is a group move, but the point of movement begins from any deployment position that you choose (i.e. not from the water's edge)

Littoral landings violate numerous group movement rules. Therefore, I do not see how they can be considered a movement, but a deployment.

[Dave Crowell]

I'm with what Bob said further down. The reserved elements are *placed* as a 1 PIP group move. The placement counts as a move for the group.

if we require the placement of a reserve to be a legal group move, should we not also require that all deployments be demonstrablt poosible for elements entering from their own base edge?

[Martian]

Chris,

Give it a rest. Bob is right.

It's a placement that costs the same as a group move. They must be placed in a group-like formation with two elements touching the waterway. After that they are bound to the movement rules.


Some clarification for an earlier poster.

Waterways, rivers and roads are linear terrain features and there is no requirement for separation between linear and non linear features.

So a marsh or dunes can be placed touching a waterway or river. (Kinda makes sense huh?)

The one restriction is that a road shouldn't run along the edge of bad going so there isn't any question of 'what terrain' a road using element is in.

Marty

[Chris Brantley]

I'm going to shut up because the consensus seems to be that Bob's way is the better way and I don't disagree.

But it still strains logic...just compare what Bob says and what the rules says:

Bob: "A Littoral landing is not a 1 PIP group move."

The rule: "If any side's home topography is Littoral, it can reserve 0-4 elements to be placed together anywhere on an existing waterday edge (at least 2 touching it) as a 1 PIP group move in its 1st bound."

It's either a 1 pip group move or it isn't. If Phil Barker didn't want the littoral landing to be subject to group move restrictions, why did he say "group move" instead of just saying "group" or some other wording? That's my last gasp in defense of the rule of literality.

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Chris Brantley:

It's either a 1 pip group move or it isn't. If Phil Barker didn't want the littoral landing to be subject to group move restrictions, why did he say "group move" instead of just saying "group" or some other wording? That's my last gasp in defense of the rule of literality. You assume Phil meant exactly what he said, and that his every word has precise meaning. Phil has in the past used the word "garrison" to mean three different things in three different areas of the rules, so that is disproved as a universal rule of thumb smile.gif

I'm home with my rules now. p8, second-last paragraph: "A group move by road, or across bad going, ... , must be in a single element wide column."

It is quite clear that elements for a littoral landing do not move ACROSS anything -- per page 8 first paragraph, those elements are "placed". They do not have an origin; they do not move across anything.

The word "across" is important to more than just elements making a littoral landing in bad going here -- what about ZOC? If the littoral landing is a move "across" space (and therefore the bad-going group-move rules apply) then the ZOC rules ("no element can move across the front of an enemy element," blah blah blah) must perforce also apply. And if that is true, then it becomes much easier to totally block the landing of an enemy force, because you can use not only your element bases and camp, but also the ZOC of elements (since it is quite easy to put your elements in such a position that it is impossible to fight them or face them due to the impassible watterway, but that the ZOC extends to block as much as 56mm or more.)

[Hannibal Ad Portas]

I kind of prefer Bob's interpretation, but artillery and war wagons and such present a problem. They aren't allowed in bad going at any other time, so why in a littoral landing should we allow them to be placed in bad going? I don't see how we can ignore one rule because another is poorly written???

[Paul A. Hannah]

Originally posted by Hannibal Ad Portas:
They [war wagons and artillery] aren't allowed in bad going...While the rule says these "cannot move off-road in bad going", I do not know of any restriction against deploying them in bad going. On rare occasions, I have actually done this, placing an Artillery element on a steep hill, or at the edge of a woods.

It's probably an ill-advised tactic on most occasions, but --hey-- even bad tactics work once in awhile. :D

[ October 23, 2004, 05:14: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

[imported_Bryanmd]

Originally posted by Martian:


Some clarification for an earlier poster.

Waterways, rivers and roads are linear terrain features and there is no requirement for separation between linear and non linear features.

So a marsh or dunes can be placed touching a waterway or river. (Kinda makes sense huh?)

The one restriction is that a road shouldn't run along the edge of bad going so there isn't any question of 'what terrain' a road using element is in.

Marty [/QB]Thanks Marty!
Bryan

[xeswop]

It's good to see us all coming to consensus. As we pick the rules apart, we will all understand them better.

Chris had some good points and I suggest he is correct that a Littoral Landing is a 1 PIP group move.

It is a "move" in the sense of an action taken. It is just that the Littoral Landinig is not a group move or better a "group action" that is restricted by the rule in the next to the last paragraph on page 8: "A group move by road or across bad going or across any but a paltry river... etc"

The Littoral Landing in bad going is not a move "across" the bad going. It is just a placement into the bad going. And there the group sits. No move across anything so a single column is not needed.

So a Littoral landing is a Group Move, it costs a PIP but it is not restricted by the moving across bad going rule because there is no moving across the bad going. Phil did not want the Littoral Landing subject to the group move restrictions and so he did not include placing a group in bad going in the context of the Group Move restriction list.


"It's either a 1 pip group move or it isn't. If Phil Barker didn't want the littoral landing to be subject to group move restrictions, why did he say "group move" instead of just saying "group" or some other wording? That's my last gasp in defense of the rule of literality."