War Wagon advice needed

[PitYakStudios]

I'm scratching Hussite war wagons, and I'll be basing them fighting style; side-on to the front of the bases, with unhitched horses behind. I like the look of the horses with the wooden amour, for a want of a better word.

My question is were these wooden side pieces attached to the horses' harness, or are they more like fences that the horses are standing behind? If it's the first, would the horses be wearing them on the move?


Secondly, I'm eventually going to be a doing a med. german army as opponents, which need two wagons of their own. I've got one made already, but I bought one of these the other day;

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=225

Do you think that could pass as a medieval german war wagon?

[David Kuijt]

Secondly, I'm eventually going to be a doing a med. german army as opponents, which need two wagons of their own. I've got one made already, but I bought one of these the other day;

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=225

Do you think that could pass as a medieval german war wagon?
Absolutely not.

There are woodcuts of German war wagons; here's a link to a whole camp including many by the Master of the Hausbuch around 1480:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_53r_53r1_Heerlager.jpg

As you can see, your image is not even close.

The outer ring of the camp is warwagons; the inner ring is standard transport wagons.

[David Kuijt]

Here's another image by the Hausbuch master, showing a German army on the march. Transport wagons on the inside; war wagons on the outside in columns.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_51v_52r1_Heerzug.jpg

[PitYakStudios]

woah they're big images! but good and useful.

I must be missing something, they don't look too different to me. What do you say is so different, the wheels?

[David Kuijt]

I must be missing something, they don't look too different to me. What do you say is so different, the wheels?

You're kidding, right? The only similarities are that they are both on four wheels and both are made of wood. Everything else about them is different.

[PitYakStudios]

Apparently not otherwise I wouldn't be asking.

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/7/92214907_full.jpg

The only differences that are obvious to me are the wheels are spoked not solid and the windows are triangular not rectangular.

[David Kuijt]

Apparently not otherwise I wouldn't be asking.

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/7/92214907_full.jpg

The only differences that are obvious to me are the wheels are spoked not solid and the windows are triangular not rectangular.

The left one is a two-dimensional wall on a flatbed with a beveled center section that opens to reveal a cannon (as shown in one of the outer-ring wagons in the camp). The other is a slab-sided box, like a mobile home made by the Flintstones.

[PitYakStudios]

thank you


Can anyone comment on the main part of my question?

[Darren Buxbaum]

PitYak,
I have seen the planks and horses in the Essex wwg. They attach to the harness. The odd thing though, I have never seen a historical illustration showing the horse team "wearing" the planking. My guess is that the horses would use this on the move. You can't get the wagons to move if the horses are all shot up. Having said that, I wouldn't think it would be too far fetched to have them carrying them when unhitched. Although, maybe those planks would be used to fill the gaps between the wagons? Frankly, I don't like the planking attached to the horses and I putty in the holes that mount the planks in the Essex model.

German WWg vs Hussite WWg and what is that wagon?
Remember the evolution of the Hussite WWg. Zizska is grouping peasant farmers to fight knights. They use farm implements and wagons. The wagon is basically a farm wagon at first with a method to attach planking either with vertical ribs or horizontal rails. This will elevate the defender in the wagon and give him a wall to protect him. Eventually with more success of the Hussites (and no one figures out to fire a bombard at the wagon fortress) the wagons become more sophisticated and probably larger. There are openinings and ramps and ammo boxes added. After the Hussite Wars end in 1439, the Hussite soldiers formed "brotherhoods" and lent their services elsewhere, namely Hungary and Poland. This technology became less taboo and the German Catholics began creating their own wagons. The ones David is showing are like giant wheeled mantles. They have crossbow/handgun slits (triangles) and sliding doors for cannon. In the Peasants war (slightly after the latest date for DBA Medieval German d list), the wagons are less grand and are again farm wagons with planking. The wagon you have illustrated could be a Pencheg wagon, but I am not sure. It definitely is an odd looking wagon. I n the earlier stages of the German WWg, I would guess that many would look like the Hussite model since it worked. The 1480 model may evolved due to greater use of pikes by opponents rather than dismounted knights with pole arms or shorter weapons, but this is my speculation.
Either way WWg are cool to model. So have fun.
Cheers,
Darren

[Bob. (and his dog)]

The model referenced in the first item, above is
"A vinea is another name for a penthouse. Penthouses were a means by which those besieging a fortress or castle might get to the foot of the walls in order to attack it, perhaps by undermining the walls or by filling in the moat to allow a siege tower to approach. It was basically a movable shed, made of wood and usually covered with raw or treated hides (and very occasionally metal plates) to prevent it from being set alight. It would have been on wheels and pushed up to the walls with the men inside so that they could do their work with some degree of protection. Obviously, the besieged would be busy trying to destroy this machine, preferably with fire. "

It is not a War Wagon in any army of the late middle ages. It is a nice model, thanks for the reference. I will get one for siege games.

Here are some pictures of War Wagon models. There are two general types. The "self-propelled " artillery wagon (David K, thanks for that great pic of the wagons on the march.) and the fighting wagon.

Here is a picture from Osprey book on Hussite Wars
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Hussite_Wars.jpg

more on Osprey book
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D9 ntLB8W-cVQC%26pg%3DPA33%26lpg%3DPA33%26dq%3Dhussite%2Bwar %2Bwagon%2Bczech%26source%3Dbl%26ots%3Dh9tbAErwIY% 26sig%3DZHFVbyG-1JnAbt-kxLLRQ2RcYJg%26hl%3Den%26ei%3D48nxSfSfI4-aMvzM_bQP%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dbook_result%26ct%3Dresul t%26resnum%3D2&ei=48nxSfSfI4-aMvzM_bQP&usg=AFQjCNGk_HNwCg8dVQsxA-iuEhdPDBnSuw

David, why didn't you refer to your excellent article on these guys? This is the army list of 1.1, but the pics and text is still excellent.
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba176/dba176.html

See examples of the artillery and combat wagons.

25mm Old Glory very simple model
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/images/DIF/DIF-23.gif

The definitive 25mm models are from Kingmaker Miniatures
http://www.kingmakerminiatures.net/catalog/index.php/cPath/136_1_6?osCsid=69e8469f8aaacea72002b40be2fdca00

Here are some pics of War Wagons in my collection (15mm)
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/WARWAGONS/wwg.html

See the Bloodax model for how the horses might be covered.

You only need 5 in an army so why not do 10. 5 advancing, and 5 in combat positions. See how one creative player set up the combat wagons
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armiesofthefanatici/ChrisHalverson/Hussites/index.html

For those interested in the Hussite wars, join my Struggle for the Chalice game on Thursday morning at Historicon. I will put 5 hussite armies in the field. Wish it could be 25mm with the Kingmaker monsters, but we have to settle for the 15mm models I have in hand.

[David Kuijt]

David, why didn't you refer to your excellent article on these guys? This is the army list of 1.1, but the pics and text is still excellent.
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba176/dba176.html (http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/%7Ekuijt/dba176/dba176.html)


I forgot about it -- that was 1998. I only keep 10 years of memory.

I should update it, though -- I repainted my Hussites for Enfilade last year in Seattle, and they are much nicer than those old things.

[Paul A. Hannah]

I repainted my Hussites for Enfilade last year in Seattle......as seen here below.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/Paul_A_Hannah/DSCF0070-1.jpg

[Ivan]

Wow, very nice!

[David Kuijt]

...as seen here below.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/Paul_A_Hannah/DSCF0070-1.jpg

Thanks, Paul!

The wagon second from the left is scratchbuilt; the other four are scratchbuilt from the waterline up (about 1/3 of the way up).

[vonBerlichingen]

That is a very nice army, David! Are the figures by Essex or by some other manufacturer? Did you convert Zizka and the mounted drummer?

[David Kuijt]

That is a very nice army, David! Are the figures by Essex or by some other manufacturer? Did you convert Zizka and the mounted drummer?

The figures are by many manufacturers. From left to right in the Blade line I see:
Gladiator, Corvus Belli, Essex with custom shield, Gladiator, Corvus, Gladiator with custom shield, Corvus, Glad, Glad, Essex, Essex, Essex, Glad, Irregular, Glad, Corvus, Essex, Glad, Glad with Essex Pavise, Corvus.

In the wagons are a mix of Corvus, Irregular, Gladiator, and Essex. In the crews behind the wagons are a mix, some Mirlitons as well as the above four.

The corpse is Essex.

The stewpot and roasting pig (and another pig watching his comfrere roasting with a tear in his eye) are Irregular.

The mounted are all Essex except Prokop the Bald (Jan Zizka is the foot commander, Prokop is the mounted commander), who is an Essex General with a head transplant from a Gladiator figure (already bald and bearded).

[PitYakStudios]

That Osprey book looks good, I might have to splash out on that. The last wargames illustrated (or the last to make it over here anyway) had a good if brief article on the hussites too.

I like the idea of making moving and fighting versions, mine are half and half at the minute, and at the end of the day I like making models more than pushing them round a table.