Hussites and 5 War Wagons

[Dale Hurtt]

Any idea on how to utilize their five war wagon list.

[David Kuijt]

Any idea on how to utilize their five war wagon list.

'Gainst whom?

I love my Hussites; they're like 12-1 in their last baker's dozen of games. I think Andy Hooper is the only one to have beaten them in the year since I repainted and rebased them.

[Dale Hurtt]

Any historical enemy, but I guess I would focus on Later Polish and Medieval German first, as those are the two enemies available locally.

I guess my main interest is how to deploy the supports in conjunction with the wagons. I was thinking of holding the supports back (echeloned back, rather than lined up) so that the wagons take the hit, then selectively counter-attack with the blades.

I read your tactics article, which was written when the Hussites used to get 4 wagons, and it talks about how wagons "can be an excellent addition to any army", whereas for the Hussites they are more than an addition, they seem like the core.

Going against the Germans, the wagons probably only fear the artillery (the rest being Knights, spear, and crossbows), so that makes me think that the Germans path to victory is to kill the Hussite General or destroy 4 VP of other troops (i.e. try to isolate the wagons and focus on the rest). To counter that, protect the rest of the troops with the wagons (which is basically what they did historically, I believe).

The Later Polish have more cavalry and less heavy infantry, so they seem like they would stand a better chance of pulling off the same strategy as the Germans, meaning the Hussite counter would essentially be the same.

Ironically, both of these armies could themselves buy wagons (2 and 1) and your article doesn't really discuss that, although I assume it is simply a long-range slug-fest that would take forever to resolve.

So, is my basic assumption right, which is that the weakness of the Hussite army would be the soft squishy center (the other 7 elements, especially a 3Kn (Gen))? And that the path to success is not attack, but counter-attack?

I envision putting the blades between the wagons, but staggered back.

..W.AW.W..
WB.BLGB.BW

W = wagon
A = artillery
L = Light Horse
G = General
B = Blade

Still working through the thoughts, but when the enemy line hits, they hit the wagons first (which hopefully holds), and the blades counter-attack those in the line that look promising.

If the blades were in line with the wagons, your opponent could line up their Kn (or even Cv) against the Blades in hopes of a kill.

One problem seems to be what to do with the artillery and light horse. It seems like the LH should be used to protect the Art, but maybe both elements should be out of the "formation".

Those are my ideas so far. Mind you, I haven't bought, much less painted, the army. I am still in the stages of thinking about an interesting opponent to those two armies, which local players have. (Right now, I am painting my Philistines.)

Thanks,

Dale

[David Kuijt]

My old tactics article is trash, throw it away. It was written for v1.1, where the combat factors are totally different and the combat results likewise, and other changes as well.

The Hussites are a two-trick pony -- WWg and Blade. The other stuff is just support for the above. This means that your mental focus on the enemy should be primarily answers to these five questions:
What are my Blade good for here?
What are my Blade vulnerable to here?
What are my WWg good for here?
What are my WWg vulnerable to here?
What can my ancillary troops do to help the above?Luckily for the Hussites, Blade and WWg are two very different beasts in terms of their vulnerability. Blade aren't scared of much except Knights. War Wagons are not scared of Knights. WWg are vulnerable to Artillery and heavy foot. Blade slaughter Arty and have an advantage against most heavy foot save other Blade, where they fight even, and none of the historical opponents have more Blade than you do.

So lets look at the two enemies you mention -- Medieval Germ (c) (you mentioned it has WWg) and Tardy Polish.

The Poles are a huge wad of mounted and a bit of foot. Answers to the 5 questions are:
Bad going dominance, plus engaging vulnerable troops (closing the door on stuff stuck to you; attacking Cav with overlaps)
Knights in the open
Slaughtering Cav and Knights with missile fire
Not much, as long as you don't leave them isolated
Your ancillary troops are vulnerable to much of his army, so you should be careful with them, and use them as your only mobile reserve. Your Arty can be fine if protected with a good field of fire.What does this mean?

Mix your Bd and WWg a bit, so as to make sure the enemy Knight don't get a romp against a wall of Bd, and to make sure the enemy Bd finds itself facing a Bd, not a WWg. Don't do a perfect alternation -- it rarely ends up being clever, somehow. If there is terrain, use it to channel the enemy, as you own the terrain.



I guess my main interest is how to deploy the supports in conjunction with the wagons. I was thinking of holding the supports back (echeloned back, rather than lined up) so that the wagons take the hit, then selectively counter-attack with the blades.


Not so good. You're giving the enemy a chance to kill your WWg with his mounted. Double overlaps bring the WWg down to +2 against mtd -- a Kn Gen will get a +4:+2 and have a 25% chance of busting a hole in your line right there. Worse still if the enemy Blade gets stuck in -- +5:+1 with double overlap and a 50% chance the WWg dies in one combat roll.

The Blade are part of your line -- you need to accept a bit of risk. Not too much -- don't let your enemy line up his whole army with Kn against your Bd and Cv/Bd against your WWg -- but don't fear the chance of losing a blade to a Knight. Just make sure you have your LH available to plug holes, and make sure that if the Knight charges in and wins, he'll advance to double-overlap where you can zoom your LH in for a +2:+2 with QK.


Going against the Germans, the wagons probably only fear the artillery (the rest being Knights, spear, and crossbows), so that makes me think that the Germans path to victory is to kill the Hussite General or destroy 4 VP of other troops (i.e. try to isolate the wagons and focus on the rest). To counter that, protect the rest of the troops with the wagons (which is basically what they did historically, I believe).


The enemy will always be using maneuver to concentrate forces against the Hussites, because the followers of Jan Hus are the slowest, most awkward army on the planet.

The Germans are a messy Medieval combined arms army. This often leads to error. Concentrate first on protecting your WWg from his Arty. Then concentrate on getting a heavy foot vs. heavy foot engagement to siphon off his heavy foot from attacking your WWg. If you do those two things well, you will win. Your own Arty is quite useful, either engaging the enemy Arty, or his awkward and slow Knight wedges, or (if you are lucky or good) his Cb.


The Later Polish have more cavalry and less heavy infantry, so they seem like they would stand a better chance of pulling off the same strategy as the Germans, meaning the Hussite counter would essentially be the same.


The Later Poles are much more capable of maneuver, so you must keep your formation and plans simpler when facing them. You don't need to protect your WWg against anything (perhaps excepting one blade).


Ironically, both of these armies could themselves buy wagons (2 and 1) and your article doesn't really discuss that, although I assume it is simply a long-range slug-fest that would take forever to resolve.


Not at all. Overlaps, and combat on friendly and enemy turns, and no recoils, all quickly make WWg/WWg shooting very deadly. For the enemy. You've got more WWg, you should win this. And if your WWg aren't quite in the best position, even better -- your Blade will be, and one Blade attacking a WWg removes it and any adjacent ones from shooting, which (used with care) should allow you to triple-team the remaining WWg.


So, is my basic assumption right, which is that the weakness of the Hussite army would be the soft squishy center (the other 7 elements, especially a 3Kn (Gen))? And that the path to success is not attack, but counter-attack?

Nope. Blades are not soft squishy center -- they are a major part of your war effort. Treat them as the surly flail-wielding game-winners they are.

The path to success with Hussites is maneuver. Sure, you are as agile as a loaded semitrailer backing up a hill. But if you have a simple plan and you don't mess it up, and you use your forces like an advancing pawn formation in Chess (to restrict enemy movement options) -- in other words, if you maneuver with foresight and caution, you will win.

If you split your forces up, try something complicated, or have no plan and start reacting to the enemy, you better hope you are lucky, because that's where your sole remaining hope will lie.

[Dale Hurtt]

Thanks a lot. That is good, detailed advice.

So, when are the Tactical Guides for 2.2 coming. :)

[Jeff Franz]

What do you think of a column movement with the Wwg. After the second turn of play making a left or right column move and present your Wwg broad side about mid-board? I was thinking that this would widen you line and free up Bd elements to flank, yeah I said flank with Bd, the 80mm side of the Wwg can only be attacked by one element making the opponents line spread or clump to fight. Thoughts

Jeff

Turn 1

w b
w b
w b
w b
w
A
K
L

Turn 2+ a couple, Wwg are slow
(note ww depicts broad side of WWg)

b
b
wwwwwwwwwwA b
KL b

(imagine the b's all lined up. Something is making the forum squish them over)
Yes, DK, I read what you said about fancy

[Dale Hurtt]

What do you think of a column movement with the Wwg. After the second turn of play making a left or right column move and present your Wwg broad side about mid-board? I was thinking that this would widen you line and free up Bd elements to flank, yeah I said flank with Bd, the 80mm side of the Wwg can only be attacked by one element making the opponents line spread or clump to fight.
Interesting, and I am sure that exploiting the quirks in the war wagon rules will cause VingThorr to scream about Hussite Cheese! :) But, it does sound like an interesting exploit.

One question: as the "arc of fire" is one base width and the length of the wagon is two base widths, you would never be able to have three wagons fire on the same target; would that play on the effectiveness of the Hussites' main weapon - shooting?

Dale

[Jeff Franz]

It may...but what you lost in firing capability you would surely make up in flexibility by freeing up 50% of your army from a meeting engagement. If you figure everyone lined up (Wwg broadside) the Hussites can cover and additional 5 x 40mm of space on the field...thats almost 8" wider then the enemy. Oh and by the way that makes your army wider then the regulation board...not the 30" DK version of course! Yes, cheese is yummy in white, yellow, and a nice Mexican mix:D I like mine with Jalapeños.

Jeff

[Xavi]

It also makes reacting to the enemy movements much harder, though. A single WWg going down means a quite wide hole in your battle line, that can easily be exploited by the enemy to attack your rear sending their mounted through it.

Xavi

[Terry37]

Very interesting discussion. One question to your plan Jeff, and I am not that familiar with the rules for war wagons, but if you turn the war wagons so their long side is facing the enemy, and they get hit by an enemy unit. does it have to turn to face, so the front (40 MM ) side is facing the enemy? If so, wouldn't that leave a hole in your line too?

I am interested to learn more here because I just picked up figures for a Polish 17th century DBA-HX army and it has two war wagons. Oh yeah and some of those beautiful winged Hussars!!!

Terry

[Xavi]

No. WWgs do not turn to face. The contacted side is considered to be the front of the unit.

Xavi

[Dale Hurtt]

but if you turn the war wagons so their long side is facing the enemy, and they get hit by an enemy unit. does it have to turn to face, so the front (40 MM ) side is facing the enemy?

According to WADBAG, the first edge contacted in close combat becomes their front edge, therefore war wagons don't have to turn to face. I can't find the corresponding rule in DBA.

Dale

[The Last Conformist]

According to WADBAG, the first edge contacted in close combat becomes their front edge, therefore war wagons don't have to turn to face. I can't find the corresponding rule in DBA.
Bottom of p4. For some reason, it's hidden in the element type description, not in the rules on turning when contacted.

[Jeff Franz]

Very does it have to turn to face, so the front (40 MM ) side is facing the enemy? If so, wouldn't that leave a hole in your line too?

Terry


No, it does not need to turn to face. The Wwg can call any side its front for combat. However for movement, thier is the one 40mm front. You can almost think of it as a mobile camp (with different rules. don't slap for that comment rules guys). Congrats on the Polish.

Jeff

SORRY, I did not see all the other responses until I posted

[Terry37]

Thank you gentlemen. I could not remember anything specific abut them as I have always stayed away from war wagon armies until now. Makes me feel better about having them now.w

Thanks too Jeff as those winged Hussars et al, will be a beautiful army when finished, but a slow one to do with so much detail on these guys. But I am excited abut them.

Terry

[VingThorr]

Interesting, and I am sure that exploiting the quirks in the war wagon rules will cause VingThorr to scream about Hussite Cheese! :) But, it does sound like an interesting exploit.

ACH! :eek i just noticed this topic! Dale is plotting on me and my poor fellow bratwurst-eaters! I had no idea he was considering such an evil army! Mark's Poles and my Krauts would be forced to utilize an age old psyops tactic, bombard your wagon-laager with hour upon hour of polka before launching our attack. "Und now, here's anudder gut tune by Larry da Polka King of Sheboygan"

[Dale Hurtt]

ACH! :eek i just noticed this topic! Dale is plotting on me and my poor fellow bratwurst-eaters! I had no idea he was considering such an evil army!
Better read this thread over a few times! Looks like a pretty interesting army! :D

Dale

[Bob. (and his dog)]

Bottom of p4. For some reason, it's hidden in the element type description, not in the rules on turning when contacted.


That is the only place Phil could find to fit in this text. Once the pages are set, he will not increase the number. That is why he sometimes shortens text on a page to add some new text.

[Haroldo Hic]

That is the only place Phil could find to fit in this text. Once the pages are set, he will not increase the number. That is why he sometimes shortens text on a page to add some new text.

unglaublich
m

[mbrien]

ACH! :eek i just noticed this topic! Dale is plotting on me and my poor fellow bratwurst-eaters! I had no idea he was considering such an evil army! Mark's Poles and my Krauts would be forced to utilize an age old psyops tactic, bombard your wagon-laager with hour upon hour of polka before launching our attack. "Und now, here's anudder gut tune by Larry da Polka King of Sheboygan"


It looks like he is preparing to meet both of us on the field of battle, I have my Late Polish army done and it has fought two battles so far and I am batting 500 so far, lost against the Teutonic Order and won against the Estonians.
So when are you coming back to play with the group again?

[Paul A. Hannah]

I love my Hussites; they're like 12-1 in their last baker's dozen of games. I think Andy Hooper is the only one to have beaten them in the year since I repainted and rebased them.
Seems like a good excuse to hoist this oft-seen picture of them again:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/Paul_A_Hannah/DSCF0070-1.jpg

DK's 15mm Hussites on the new 8" x 5" DBA game-boards that David is all jazzed about. (No wonder he's so successful with Hussites.)

[Dale Hurtt]

Seems like a good excuse to hoist this oft-seen picture of them again:
Wow! What manufacture of figures are those? I was looking at some Medus Hussite miniatures and thinking of going with them.

Dale

[David Kuijt]

Wow! What manufacture of figures are those? I was looking at some Medus Hussite miniatures and thinking of going with them.


It is a mixture of:

Gladiator (now Black Hat)
Corvus Belli
Essex
IrregularWagons 1, 3, 4, 5 are about 30% Irregular wagons and the rest built up with balsa; wagon 2 is completely scratch-built save for the wheels.

[Paul A. Hannah]

And a shameless posting of my own 15mm Hussites, sporting their "true believer" propaganda on the sides of the wagons.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/Paul_A_Hannah/DSCF0069.jpg

"Irregular" wagons, slightly modified. Crews and other figures are a mix of "Irregular", "Essex" and the occasional "Mikes Models".

[Dale Hurtt]

Very impressive. Like the ducks (geese?), cups, castles, etc. heraldry in both the pictures.

[Gregorius]

Paul,

I'll jump on the shameless wagon as well:

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gkellehe/Hussites/DBA_Hussites_WWg.jpg

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gkellehe/Hussites/DBA_Hussites_Bd.jpg

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gkellehe/Hussites/DBA_Hussites_Gen.jpg

Figures are by Essex, wagons and tents by Evil Gong Miniatures

Regards,

[Dale Hurtt]

Great inspiration for painting my Hussites ... when I buy them that is.

[Jeff Franz]

Have them ass well. Can not wait to play them for the first time. I just am not having any luck getting the right opponent for them. Either I am facing an all mounted army or all foot. I just need to get my gaming buddies put together new armies faster.

Jeff

[Timurilank]

Paul,

I'll jump on the shameless wagon as well:

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gkellehe/Hussites/DBA_Hussites_WWg.jpg

Figures are by Essex, wagons and tents by Evil Gong Miniatures

Regards,

Gregorius,

Who produces the light coloured grass? Heki, Busch, or other. Could you give me its proper name? I rather like the contrast with the earth. Nice work.

Cheers,

[Gregorius]

Hi Robert,

It's a product made by Gale Force 9 (www.gf9.com (http://www.gf9.com/)) and if I recall correctly it is GFS002 Static Grass: Parched Straw.

Regards,

[Doug]

I flogged 'em today with the Venetian Condotta... lovely work though, the pictures don't do them justice.

Really really nice work.

[Gregorius]

I flogged 'em today with the Venetian Condotta... lovely work though, the pictures don't do them justice.

Really really nice work.

Doug,

Thanks for the kind words. However, as I was running the DBA comp at CANCON I wasn't playing. I lent the Hussites to a friend.

Regards,

[Doug]

and I suspect I may have inadvertently cheated, as it was subsequently pointed out to me that i couldn't ignore the Hussite artillery to shoot at the neighbouring war-wagon. Shows how often i play DBA - it was only the one round though as he then shot at me with the art.. and recoiled to be out of range.