Moving to contact within i base width of the front on enemy element

[imported_Michael]

Hi,
a scenario arose at one of our DBA games last night. And we would like to get the view of the the ‘Forum’

Below are an element of Bldaes confronted by an element of LH (it could be any other element).
They are in the ‘1 base width’ (ZOC) of each other. And at an angle to each other.
It is the LH turn to move.
We understand that the LH is subject to the restrictions of moving across the face of the Blade.

-------BBBBBBBBBBBB
-------............
-------............
LH-----............
--LH---............
----LH-............
-----…LH...........
------..LH.........
------....LH.......

The question
If the LH chooses to move to contact.
Does it have to ‘contact’ the front edge of the blade element or can it make contact the Flank of the Bdelement ??

The LH could be any other type of element with enough movement.
We thought that it ‘should’ only contact frontof Blades .
Your views would be most appreciated.

[David Crowell]

I would venture that it can only contact the front, because otherwise it is violating the rules for crossing an element's front.

There is no way it can legally contact the flank of the blade without crossing the front of the Blade. The one exception is because it is LH it _might_ have sufficient movement to move back away from the Bd (but not directly to its own rear) then once beyond the 1EBW distance move sideways tehn into contact with the Bd's flank. It would require very precise measurements and a particular starting position for this to be possible, if at all. As you have drawn the positions it looks like the LH is too close to the Bd to have sufficient move remaining after clearing the 1 EBD. (This assumes that if the LH moves perpendicular to the front of the Bd, while maintaining its angle relative to the Bd (and making no latteral movement) it is not considered to be crossing the front of the Bd)

[ June 11, 2003, 21:48: Message edited by: David Crowell ]

[imported_Michael]

David

Firstly thanks for your input, especially as my diagram is a bit confusing. Just a few points to make it a bit clearer what the scenario is.


The LH is at an angle to the Bd, so it is limited to the 'moving across the face ' restrictions.

We are assuming that the LH has enough movement to move across the face of the Bd element and make 'Flank' contact'if allowed. (the diagram was just supposed to be an aid)

Our discussion involved the actual implementation of one of the LH element's options (as we saw it) namely - "except to contact ..... 1 such element.."

??? can the LH "..move across the front of.." the Bd and make a flank contact - or is it limited to contacting only the front.

We thought as you do that it might only be able to contact the front.

With just a quick 'heads together' of DBA players at the time, we could not find a definitive or guiding answer in the rules.

Perhaps we were missing something ? Hense the bquestion to the 'Forum'.

Again thanks for your input

Regards
Michael

[xeswop]

In the position that it is in, not aligned with the Bd, any move the LH makes is crossing its front.

If the LH is lined up exactly with the Bd, that is as Phil says, lines crossing the middle of each element are parallel, then the LH can back up and move normally after leaving the BWDarea. if the lines are not parallel, or another way to view it, if the front edges are not parallel, then a move in any direction by the LH is a crossing move and must be entirely toward its own rear,

BDBDBDBD

LHLHLHLH

These are lined up

XXXBDBDBDBD X=space

LHLHLHLH

These are lined up. So LH can move without crossing the front and so to the rear and then change direction. The front edges are parallel.

Hard to draw in ascii but if the the LH is rotated any amount, it is not lined up with BD and so _any_ move is crossing the front. Frontwards, sidewards, backwards, all are crossing the front. The only moves that are thus allowed are moves to contact, line up opposite, or move only to the rear.

Does this help?

[David Crowell]

Originally posted by xes***:
if the front edges are not parallel, then a move in any direction by the LH is a crossing move

Hard to draw in ascii but if the the LH is rotated any amount, it is not lined up with BD and so _any_ move is crossing the front. Frontwards, sidewards, backwards, all are crossing the front. The only moves that are thus allowed are moves to contact, line up opposite, or move only to the rear.

Does this help? Thanks Bob,
This finally answers my question. Phil neglected to state that the lines determining crossing the front had to be perpendicular to the fronts of the elements, and parallel to each other.

[imported_Michael]

Bob and David
Thanks for added points. But some how my actual question is not being answered, so I will piece it together in the hope of clarity.

1. if the front edges are not parallel, then a move in any direction by the LH is a crossing move OK, thats exactly right, that's what we all agree on.

Next
2. ..... The only moves that are thus allowed are moves to contact, line up opposite, or move only to the rear.
Again, thats agreed.

Now our question deals only with the 'moves to contact' option from 2 above.

3.the ??? Can the LH 'move to contact' the Bd on the FLANK (flank contact) - or is it limited to contacting only the Bd element's FRONT edge.
[/QUOTE]

That's the ??? no3.. It is a given that the two elements are in a position relative to each other, Where the LH has enough movement to make a Flank contact 'if allowed'

My regrets for previous confusion
Regards. And thanks in advance for your patience

Michael

[Redwilde]

Good question Michael. I even understood it from your first post. My abilities to figure out Phil's intent on such questions is not te best, but here's my two obols...

The option to line up opposite would seem to imply that you could only contact the front edge.

However, the option to contact does not specify front edge only. There are many other rules where specific edges are spelled out, so it would be reasonable to then presume that Phil would have spelt out specific edge(s) here. Thus it seems you should be able to contact the flank since its not prohibited. (But this type of reasoning has gotten me into trouble before.)

On the other hand, if you were allowed to contact the flank, there is no expressed limitation that you have to start off-center. This would imply you could contact the flank from straight in front if you had sufficient movement. But this seems rather against the spirit of the rule.

So, all-in-all, I'd give odds of 7:12 that you are not allowed to contact the flank.

:cool:

[imported_Michael]

Redwilde

Thanks for 2 OBOLS
[QUOTE]Redwilde

You wrote

On the other hand, if you were allowed to contact the flank, there is no expressed limitation that you have to start off-center. This would imply you could contact the flank from straight in front if you had sufficient movement. But this seems rather against the spirit of the rule.

That is a very interesting point. This is what our club members had some concern about. But could find no guidance in the rules.

Regards

Michael

[xeswop]

A good place to look for solutions to problems is the DBA Resource page FAQ. All of those items are in my Commentary but sometimes with different text. Here is what the FAQ says on this issue:

"Can an enemy in an enemy's zone of control move through the zone to hit it on the
flank instead of on the front edge?

The DBA 1.1 rules said that you could not cross enemy front except to contact or face one such
element's "front." DBA 2.0 removed the word "front", which prompts the question raised above.
Specifically, the DBA 2.0 rule reads "No element can move across the front of an enemy element
or enemy-controlled BUA or camp within 1 element base width distance and not at least partially
separated from it by another element, except to contact or face 1 such element ...." When asked
whether removal of the word "front" meant a change in the rule, Phil Barker replied "The rule
means the same it always did. Move to contact, not go past and turn."

So there is the intent. Too bad the rule does not actually say that. smile.gif

[blackcompany]

Originally posted by xes***:
Specifically, the DBA 2.0 rule reads "No element can move across the front of an enemy element or enemy-controlled BUA or camp within 1 element base width distance and not at least partially separated from it by another element, except to contact or face 1 such element ...." One little extra clarification if you would xes*** (or anyone sure they know the right answer). Lets say i want to move my blades towards an enemy element. The blades start far enough away that their 200 paces of movement is not sufficient to reach the enemy element, but is enough to break the "element width" in front of the intended target. My question is, should the blades stop at an element's width from their target, or do they get to keep moving up to their max movement?

We played that they had to stop an element's width away. That doesn't make sense to me, but it's what the rule seems to be saying.

Thanks,

Blackcompany

[imported_Michael]

Bob
Thanks, excellent answer and a good result
Regards
Michael

[xeswop]

"The rule says you may not move except ..."
So you can move to (as in toward) contact.
Or you can move to line up opposite if you are not already so aligned.

I have never heard of any one reading that you had to stop outside the BWD. Is this because your friends think you must be able to actually make contact on the move you enter the BWD? What if enemy were on other side of a river over 100p wide.
You could never get to the enemy in one bound as Bd moves only 100p in the river.

Hope this helps.
Originally posted by blackcompany:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by xes***:
[qb] Specifically, the DBA 2.0 rule reads "No element can move across the front of an enemy element or enemy-controlled BUA or camp within 1 element base width distance and not at least partially separated from it by another element, except to contact or face 1 such element ...." One little extra clarification if you would xes*** (or anyone sure they know the right answer). Lets say i want to move my blades towards an enemy element. The blades start far enough away that their 200 paces of movement is not sufficient to reach the enemy element, but is enough to break the "element width" in front of the intended target. My question is, should the blades stop at an element's width from their target, or do they get to keep moving up to their max movement?

We played that they had to stop an element's width away. That doesn't make sense to me, but it's what the rule seems to be saying.

Thanks,

Blackcompany </font>[/QUOTE]

[blackcompany]

Originally posted by xes***:

I have never heard of any one reading that you had to stop outside the BWD. Is this because your friends think you must be able to actually make contact on the move you enter the BWD? What if enemy were on other side of a river over 100p wide.
You could never get to the enemy in one bound as Bd moves only 100p in the river.
Yes, we thought that you had to actually make contact if you entered the zoc.

I always try to take my own approach, so i'm kind of glad nobody else bungled the reading of the rule as badly as i did! ;)

Thanks for the help. BTW, your addendum to the rules helps a lot and is greatly appreciated!

Blackcompany

[xeswop]

Phil has said that as long as people are having fun playing, it does not matter if they get it "right." ;)