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VingThorr
01-22-2008, 11:31 AM
still learning DBA, have a turning to face question


I know if Unit X contacts two unit Y's in the flank you turn them both to face unit X

like this:

XYYYY
XYYYY
X
X

so the Y units turn to face like this:

XYY
XYY
XYY
XYY

does it change anything if they are contacted like this?:

XYYYY if this Y unit is facing north
X
X
XYYYY and this Y unit is facing south


and if you do line them up like this again:

XYY
XYY
XYY
XYY

then which player picks which unit is in front? If unit X is Knights, and one Y unit is bows, and the other is auxilia. Obviously the X-man would rather place the auxilia in front, and the Y man would rather place the Bows in front! whose choice?

Thanks

Bob. (and his dog)
01-22-2008, 03:47 PM
The second case is a very rare event, the two defending elements must be exactly a base width apart, and facing opposite directions. Otherwise the attacking element would not make legal contact on both defenders. If this is the case, then I suggest the rule be followed.

"Elements not in mutual front edge contact with an enemy element but contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face the first to so contact at the end of the movement phase, the contactor making room. If an element so contacts the flanks of 2 enemy elements, both these turn, the 2nd moving to behind the 1st. A 3rd element is pushed back clear. "

There are three points to consider. Do the attacked elements keep their relative distance as the second moves behind the first? Second, which of the two attacked elements ends up in contact with the attacker. Third, do they keep their relative facing positions?

Regarding the first and third, the rule does not say anything about relative distance or position only that the "second" moves behind the "first." The rule was written for elements in a column facing same direction, so implies that the second keeps its relative position. What if it were facing the opposite direction from the first. The first is the one that is contact with a legal contact.

In VingThorr's situation, I would require the two elements to keep their relative distance and facing. Strange but that is what the rule says. No reference to the second "closing up" or "turning to face." If both players agree, then they can move them in any way they want to be perhaps more "logical."

Which is the "first" element, the one that ends in combat? No way to answer that within the rules, so let them choose with a dice throw. Each side picks the one the want to fight. Roll die, high wins and why not make that the combat roll too. The fewer rolls the better.

VingThorr
01-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Aha! Thanks, makes sense to me.

I've had this happen a couple time now as I break up a large group of infantry in order to "circle up the wagons" as I find myself surrounded by LH. Genghis loves to slip around behind me once I've overextended myself.

Thanks!

David Kuijt
01-22-2008, 04:06 PM
"Elements not in mutual front edge contact with an enemy element but contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face the first to so contact at the end of the movement phase, the contactor making room. If an element so contacts the flanks of 2 enemy elements, both these turn, the 2nd moving to behind the 1st. A 3rd element is pushed back clear. "

[...], the rule does not say anything about relative distance or position only that the "second" moves behind the "first." The rule was written for elements in a column facing same direction, so implies that the second keeps its relative position. What if it were facing the opposite direction from the first. The first is the one that is contact with a legal contact.
If the elements are 20mm deep, both contacts are legal.


In VingThorr's situation, I would require the two elements to keep their relative distance and facing. Strange but that is what the rule says. No reference to the second "closing up" or "turning to face."

One element contacted turns to face the contactor, and the rule goes on to say that if two elements are contacted, both of those turn (to face the contactor, by very strong implication). So I think you are wrong; both elements contacted must turn to face the contactor.

Which is the "first" element, the one that ends in combat? No way to answer that within the rules, so let them choose with a dice throw.
Right, that answer isn't in the rules.
Each side picks the one the want to fight. Roll die, high wins and why not make that the combat roll too. The fewer rolls the better.
Hell, why not roll combats in pairs! One roll suffices for two combats...

If the idea of saving dice rolls is that important, don't roll for who decides which element is in front -- just let the moving player pick. He's the one attacking, after all.

Bob. (and his dog)
01-22-2008, 06:33 PM
One element contacted turns to face the contactor, and the rule goes on to say that if two elements are contacted, both of those turn (to face the contactor, by very strong implication). So I think you are wrong; both elements contacted must turn to face the contactor.



I am only stating what the rules say, so I cannot be wrong. Just of a different opinion of what they mean.

The rules do not say that the second element turns to face. Only that both turn. However, given Phil's perchance for parsimony, I will agree that he would want both to turn to face as stated for a single element turning to face.

Does he also expect "the second moving to behind the first" to mean directly behind, or moving to maintaining a relative position behind the first. The element facing north (if the other is the combating element) does move behind the first. Initially facing east, but if we agree with the interpretation of facing the attacker, then it faces west also. It moved to be behind the first, even though it is at a distance from it. Perhaps a tournament manager would rule that it should end up directly behind the first. I am only saying that the rule is not explicit.

Phil never foresaw this situation and so, as is often the case, leaves the rules a bit vague, expecting the players to work it out on their own.


"Elements not in mutual front edge contact with an enemy element but contacted to flank or rear by an enemy front edge turn to face the first to so contact at the end of the movement phase, the contactor making room. If an element so contacts the flanks of 2 enemy elements, both these turn, the 2nd moving to behind the 1st."

Bob. (and his dog)
01-22-2008, 06:40 PM
Hell, why not roll combats in pairs! One roll suffices for two combats...


Even simpler, each player rolls a die for all combats in a bound.

But on a serious note, players do roll a die for pairs of combats. Often players think they roll once for their attack, with other player rolling for defense. Then the non-bounding player would roll to fight back, if still there. Likewise, many times I have needed to explain to players that an exchange of bow shooting is done with one die per player, not two rolls each. "Pairs" of combats are thus rolled with one die.

My suggestion for single die roll for VingThorr's situation was only a suggestion, no reason to get so upset about it.

Noble
01-23-2008, 10:56 AM
We had a situation like this, luckily, both elements were already contacted.

But it gave the attacker the opportunity to provide overlaps towards both combats.

Though it didn't help ;)

In a position like the above I would rule that both elements line up directly behind each other, with the contactor deciding which he aimed to contact first. Both elements are validly contacted, and so I don't see them keeping a distance after turning, as both are wanting to pile in.

David Kuijt
01-23-2008, 11:01 AM
My suggestion for single die roll for VingThorr's situation was only a suggestion, no reason to get so upset about it.

Don't worry -- my saying "Hell!" was being melodramatic, not upset. I was just disconcerted by your juxtaposition of resolving a rules question and a combat roll together -- those are apples and oranges.