DBA v DBMM100

[hammurabi70]

Last month I played in a game of DBMM and was impressed that it had improved DBM. Has anyone tried playing the slimmed down version - DBMM100 - which I understand is an equivalent to DBA in terms of approximate element count in an army but using points?

Can anyone compare the two?

[nixon1411]

Although i haven't tried DBMM100 I have just posted a battle report of a DBMM200 game (equivalent to BBDBA) which hopefully highlights some of the good things about DBMM.

[Lawson Reilly]

I've played DBMM100. It's just as fun and fast as DBA. I played an all Irregular army, though, which meant that my pips did not go nearly as far as they do in DBA. With irregular troops it's easy to burn 3 or 4 pips moving a single group. In the bigger games, with sub-generals, this is less of a problem. But with just the one C-in-C and one pip roll in DBMM100, it's tough.

Despite this, I'm looking forward to my next game. We'd be playing DBMM200 or full-blown DBMM if we had more minis.

[Pavane]

I played a solitaire game of DBMM100 last night to try out the rules using Sub-Roman British II/81d vs. Norse Viking III/40b. A 100AP game does feel a lot like DBA in that the complex terrain setup, weather, time of day, deployment, flank march, and strategem rules are not used. Also, it can be played on a 30" square battlefield. With 100AP the Brits and Vikings had 23 and 24 elements respectively, so you are playing with an army of almost double the size with the same number of PIPs. As mentioned by others, this is even worse with Irregular troops because of the additional PIP cost associated with fancy group moves.

It was very satisfying to see how the combat factors and grading differentiated the troops, even within the same army! The Viking Huscarls are graded Ordinary and can receive rear support, while the Hird are Inferior and cannot. The SR-British Pedyts Sp(I) foot are quick killed by Bd on an enemy bound, but they are both 4's, the Sp(I) can have rear support (Sp(I) and Ps(O)), and the Sp(I) are only 1/2 ME so a LOT have to be killed before the army is disheartened.

The Bd played differently from DBA. Bd are now 4 vs. everything, so they are stronger against mounted and receive a QK against heavy foot in their own bound. Cv are now 3 vs. mounted and 4 vs. anything else, so with Bd vs. Cv they are still evenly matched but there will be fewer kills.

[edit: clarification]

[Phil Bagnall]

Not DBMM100, but did play a 300 point game at the weekend with 2 players a side so nearly that size on my side of the table. As said before, irregular troops (my opponent - Sea People) are very expensive in PIPs to manoeuvre anything other than straight ahead whilst my regular NKEs were much more manageable. Even with no chariotry in my command (bar the general) and far fewer troops than the opponent I held the wing whilst my partner rolled up the opposite side admirably. Fun, but in a different way to the fast & furious multi games per session that DBA brings

[nixon1411]

I managed to play 4 games of DBMM100 over the weekend – all were highly enjoyable, with each revealing something new about the DBMM100 format.
Each of the 125AP armies managed to field around 18 elements each, with an ME total of about 22.
Despite having larger armies, with the elements, in general, costing more PiPs to move/maneouvre than their DBA counterparts, the games, very surprisingly, played more smoothly and faster than DBA – even with the larger, 30”x30”, board area. My view is that this probably has a lot to do with the fact that in DBMM ALL elements can, potentially, march move, rather than just Light Horse (or Ps in their 1st bound) as is the case with DBA. Also, the basic Good Going DBMM movement allowances are quite a bit more generous than in DBA – Ps, move almost 1” more, and Lh 1.25” more. One game saw Guy send his Akinji Lh (F) out on a wide flanking move in column, getting them onto a Difficult going hill before running out of PiPs. I responded in my bound by March moving a single element of Serbian Krayishnici Ax into flank contact with the Akinjis – this cost 5 PiPs; 1 each for the 3 march moves, with an additional +1 for Irregulars marching a 3rd or subsequent time, with a further +1 for marching into contact – expensive I know, but it did prove quite devastating. The Ax were on +3 (this is different from DBA) v’s the Lh’s +0 (+3 starting factor v’s foot, -2 for difficult going, and -1 for being unable to start a recoil due to the “edge of the world”) meant it was looking bad for the Akinjis! As the Lh were (F) they also suffered an additional -1 if scoring less than their opponent in the enemy (my) bound. My Ax took out all 4 Lh over the next few bounds..!
The grading factors can have a significant impact too, making combats between different quality troops more likely to have a decisive outcome rather than being a prolonged series of “shoving matches” – the Janissary Bw (S) v’s Serbian Archers Bw (I) shooting exchanges in one of our games was a perfect example of this – The Bw (I) receiving an additional -2 when scoring less than the Bw (S) (-1 for (I) troops scoring less than opponent, and a further -1 for scoring less against a (S) opponents shooting). Suffice to say, the Serbians were comprehensively out-shot…!
Of the 4 games, only one ended before the 1 hour time limit; my later Swiss being well and truly trounced by Ian’s Free Company - not the outcome I was anticipating for my experiment with massed Pk (S) & Bd (X) – In my excitement at discovering Bd (X) QK’d Kn I failed to notice that they, in turn, were QK’d by Kn….! You live & learn.
Defeat occurs when your army has lost 50% of its starting Morale Equivalent (ME) value. The remaining games were decided on points – the victor gets 5 VP plus 1VP for each ME up to 5 the enemy has lost more than him, with the loser scoring 10VP minus the victors score.
Overall, I feel that DBMM100 gives a more satisfactory game than DBA, with very little in the way of extra complication – although, admittedly, all of the participating players are more or less “au fait” with the DBMM rules.
Hope this has proved of some interest.

Happy Hogmanay!

I’m looking forward to seeing the New Year in with an evening of traditional Scottish dancing at a Ceilidh, and maybe a couple of Laphroaigs – time to dust off my kilt and see if I can remember those dances that were part of the curriculum at school back in Scotland...

Happy New Year

Bob Mcleish

[hammurabi70]

Happy Hogmanay!

I’m looking forward to seeing the New Year in with an evening of traditional Scottish dancing at a Ceilidh, and maybe a couple of Laphroaigs – time to dust off my kilt and see if I can remember those dances that were part of the curriculum at school back in Scotland...

Happy New Year
Bob Mcleish

Many thanks - most interesting. I did get one game of DBMM in but it was larger than this. Not sure how well it works even if an improvement on DBM. I hope people will keep the data flowing.

Sadly I had no time to arrange a visit north for the new year and ended up on the south coast. perhaps our Scottish members can come up with something for us all in 12 months time!

[nixon1411]

Last night I managed to play another game of DBMM100, this time pitting my Hindu Indians (III/10) against Robin’s Timurids (IV75).
Both armies were 125AP and were composed as follows:

Hindu Indians
CinC – Irr El (O)
2x Elephants – Irr El (O)
4x Cavalry – Irr Cv (O)
6x Archers – Irr Bw (I)
2x Swordsmen – Irr Bd (F)
3x Javelinmen – Irr Ps (S)
1x Camp Followers – Irr Hd (O)
2x Ox Carts – Irr Bge (I)

Timurids
Timur i Lenk CinC – Reg Cv (S) – Brilliant General
4x Timurid Cavalry – Reg Cv (S)
2x Georgian (I think) cavalry – Irr Cv (S)
2x Turcomans – Irr Lh (S)
1x Elephant – Irr El (O)
1x Timurid Archer – Reg Bw (S)
1x Afghan Militia – Irr Ax (O)
2x Afghan Archers – Irr Bw (O)
1x Bge (unsure what this was exactly)

The Timurids were, unsurprisingly, invading so I was setting up terrain. I placed a road centrally, 2 Woods and an area of Rough going towards the edges of the board – the plan being that I would have plenty of clear space in the centre to advance my Bw, Bd & El, their flanks supported by my Cv. I planned on using the Ps (S) to contest any of the terrain features which might end up being key.. The camp follower Hd would be left to guard the baggage.
I must have switched off temporarily whilst placing the terrain, because after Robin rotated the board through 90 degrees I was left with a wood slap bang in the middle of my deployment zone – d’oh!

I deployed as best I could, lining my archers up in front of the wood, with the element closest to the road getting rear support from another Bw. The cavalry deployed 2 abreast astride the road, with the elephants in column behind them. The blade occupied the space between the road and wood, and my psiloi deployed in a line defending the edge of the wood. The baggage and horde deployed between the wood and my base edge. Not ideal, so I crossed my fingers and hoped for high PiPs in the early bounds and perhaps a mistake or two by Robin – Robin has played a lot of DBA and a fair few games of DBMM, but not too much experience with his Timurids
Robin’s Ax and Timurid Bw occupied the Rough Going, whilst the bulk of his cavalry deployed in a line between the rough going and the road. His Afghan bow deployed centrally close to his baseline, whilst his Elephant headed up a column on the road containing his Light horse.
As invader, Robin took the first bound; as he prepared to roll his PiP die I turned to Guy, who was sitting next to me and setting up to play Adrian, and said ”please roll a 1”. Robin duly obliged and decided to use his sole PiP to strike fast, sending his elephant headed column thundering up the road towards my cavalry. Unfortunately, his lone PiP meant he couldn’t check the elephant’s advance; his move bringing him into the range of my Bw. I fired off a shot with my supported Bw plus a further assist from the Bw at his side for +5 to +3 in my favour. I scored enough to recoil the elephant who caused the Light Horse behind him to flee, one of them fleeing back down the road, and off the board..
I rolled a 6 for PiPs, and advanced my line of Bw straight ahead to have another shot at the elephant whilst they closed the distance with Robin’s line of Cv. Meanwhile, my cavalry formed up into a column and marched off towards my left, picking their way between the wood and the Bw elements. As I was more than 400 Paces away from any enemy I could march again, getting my cavalry into a line just beyond my leftmost Bw element. My remaining PiPs were spent manoeuvring my El & Bd as a group into a position where they could protect the flanks of my Bw. This was costly - +1PiP for a mixed group of foot & mounted, +1 for wheeling and +1 PiP for “Irregular Ineptness”; only the CinC’s -1 made it viable with my remaining PiPs. My shooting forced a further recoil on the Timurid El, and I was beginning to feel a bit better about things, having been able to re-deploy unmolested..

Robin rolled a 2 for PiPs and, conscious that a further recoil by his elephant could effect other elements, decided to close the distance with the Bw, hoping for an opportunity to trample them underfoot in subsequent bounds. His remaining Lh moved off to his right, shadowing my Cavalry..
My shooting once again forced his El to recoil.
I rolled a 5 for PiPs, and advanced my Cv forward to better cover the left flank of my Bw. I spent my remaining PiPs expanding my Elephants from column and halting the Impetuous Bd.
Robin’s El recoiled again under a shower of arrows.

Better PiPs for Robin, who charged his El into my line of Bw, and moved his cavalry into a position where they could engage my Bw next bound, if they managed to weather a bound of shooting. His Timurid Bw broke from the cover of the Rough going and, no doubt inspired by the shooting prowess of my Bw, headed towards my elephants..
My shooting was quite poor, and the (S) grading of the Timurid Cv meant they didn’t even recoil. The El recoiled from close combat with my Bw.
My PiPs were mediocre, giving me barely enough to send my Bd towards the Bw heading for the flank of my Elephant line. My shooting started well, with my rear supported Bw element doubling the Timurid El. The death throes of this mighty beast must have spoilt the aim of my remaining Bw, who all rolled 1’s. Robin’s Bw fired at my Bd, forcing them to recoil.

Robin threw his line of Cv into my line of Bw, confident of riding them down (Cv are +4 in close combat v’s foot), and duly killed 3 elements. His shooting had no effect on my Bd.
At this point there were 5 minutes remaining and it was clear this game would be decided on points.. My Bd spontaneously advanced into his Bw, and one of my Elephants peeled off to give an overlap. My Cv charged the flank of Robin’s Light horse, who had been a flank overlap on the end of my line of Bw. My shooting was ineffective, my Cv were recoiled by the Lh and my Bd failed to kill the Bw.
In the end I had 6.5 VP to Robin’s 3.5
All in all a very good game which reminded me the importance of thinking hard about terrain placement. In the end I was fortunate to pull off the win, and think Robin could have won had he been less cautious with his Cv and perhaps more cautious with his Elephant. he also failed to use either of the 2 Brilliant strokes available to his general - he could have used these to double his PiPs in one bound, or added a further +2 to his CinC's combat factor.

Hope some of this has been useful.
Cheers
Bob Mcleish

[hammurabi70]

Hope some of this has been useful.
Cheers
Bob Mcleish

Very interesting but two questions:
How did it compare to playing the same game using DBA 12-element armies?
Did you enjoy it more or less than DBA?

[nixon1411]

Very interesting but two questions:
How did it compare to playing the same game using DBA 12-element armies?
Did you enjoy it more or less than DBA?

Hi,

Glad you're finding these Battle Reports/comments on DBMM100 interesting.

In answer to your questions, I played a solo game using the Timurid & Hindu Indian DBA armies on a 30"x30" board, using the same terrain, deployment and PiPs (same PiPs for the first 2 bounds anyway, as I had noted these) - Being unable to march move, my cavalry were unable to redeploy in time to cause the Timurid cavalry line any problems, and some low Hindu PiP rolls in the midgame meant my elephant column was left high & dry. I used the Timurid El more cautiously, moving it along with the Lh to counter the possibility of the Hindu Cv protecting the Hindu Bw (due to poor PiPs and the prohibitive cost of expanding from column in DBA this never transpired...)
The Indian Bw were considerably more effective shooting against the Timurid Cv, largely due to the lower Cv combat factor, and their lack of (S) grading. This was offset partially by the shorter Bw range, meaning the Cv only had one chance to shoot them up.. Killing a couple of Cv & disrupting their line with recoils wasn't enough, and my line of Bw were ridden down by Timurid Cv, their El and flanking Lh. Game over.
I would have to say I enjoyed the DBMM game considerably more; despite the extra PiP cost involved in moving generally, the fact that all elements can march move (depending on the proximity of enemy) means that it's easier to extricate yourself from a less than optimal setup, and get the troops that count to where they're needed. The grading factors really serve to highlight the differences in troop quality and, for me, make it more enjoyable..

regards
Bob Mcleish

[Mike Porter]

I've really enjoyed the opinions expressed here lately regarding DBMM dabblings. Do you guys think you are wed to DBMM or are you going to be trying out FoG?

I would like to give a complicated rule-set a try, and I have to admit that the shinyness of the whole FoG package is appealing. Lots of pictures, painted figs and diagrams.

I am going to get both sets and mess around with them.

[nixon1411]

Mike,

Glad you've been enjoying my ramblings...
Our gaming group have definitely embraced DBMM, and have played it to the exclusion of everything else every Monday evening since last August perhaps. Having finally gotten to grips with the bulk of the rules, we've decided to give them a rest for a bit, and give some of our figures from other periods an opportunity to shine: we'll be spending the next 4-6 weeks playing 25mm AWI games using the Piquet: Field of Battle rules, and after that we're planning on trying out the Principles of War Renaissance rules, using our 6mm ECW figures. Those 2 rule sets should take us up to mid march and "Triples" (a big 2 day show in Sheffield about 1/2 an hour from where I live..) I'll definitely have a look at the FoG rules then, but the price tag puts me off, especially as I now have, in DBMM, a big battle set of rules I really enjoy (I could get 2 or 3 DBA army packs for the price of the rules..)
There's also the fact that the DBMM BkII lists should be out by then and I'm also planning on buying more 25mm stuff from Front Rank (Napoleonics probably..)
I think FoG, with it's clear examples, diagrams and simpler writing style, will be easier to learn than DBMM, and will hopefully attract more gamers to the Ancient/Mediaeval period (who had possibly been put off by the not-so-user-friendly style of DBM/DBMM). And pictures of well painted figures are always a treat to look at...
Here in the UK there's a lot of talk about FoG supplanting DBM as the main competition rule set. Aside from the occasional PAWS DBA tournament I'm not really a competition gamer so that won't influence whether I take up FoG or not.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on both sets, once you've given them a go...

cheers
bob mcleish

[hammurabi70]

Mike,
Our gaming group have definitely embraced DBMM, and have played it to the exclusion of everything else every Monday evening since last August perhaps. cheers
bob mcleish

Would this be DBMM500 or DBMM100? It certainly sounds as if it represents a serious alternative to DBA in the latter format.

[nixon1411]

Would this be DBMM500 or DBMM100? It certainly sounds as if it represents a serious alternative to DBA in the latter format.

The bulk of our games have been DBMM240, which is the equivalent of BBDBA; played on 2'x4' boards, although we have recently started playing DBMM100, with the occasional game with 350AP armies per side.
DBMM100 has definitely replaced DBA as our "quick game" of choice, and I'd be more than happy to put on a game for any Fanatici who happen to be in the area..

cheers
Bob Mcleish

[hammurabi70]

DBMM100 has definitely replaced DBA as our "quick game" of choice, and I'd be more than happy to put on a game for any Fanatici who happen to be in the area..
cheers
Bob Mcleish

I think that will be about mid-March then!

[Mike Porter]

From what I'm understanding, is it true that an interposing piece (put there intentionally to block an element from making contact) can actually be brushed aside so that you can make contact? I find the idea very interesting. Can anyone elaborate? (Yes Bob, I know there is a DBMM discussion list.) :p

Speaking of the DBMM discussion list; Phil released the list of armies for Book II and there are no additions like Book III.

[Lawson Reilly]

DBMM is much more facilitating to elements wanting to make contact with the enemy. In general, if you can make contact with the front edge or front corner (your edge to its corner) of an enemy element, either the enemy element must conform or you must slide into full contact (up to 80 paces of free movement). Other enemy elements must make room. Who conforms to who depends on whether or not your element is part of a group, and sometimes a few other conditions.

Some other cool things about DBMM combat:
Elements contacted on the rear do not turn to face until after combat. They get a massive penalty (-2 total). Light Horse are an exception, being nimble and all.

If your group contacts an enemy element on the corner, if the enemy is also part of a group it can opt not to conform and instead fights as if overlapped on that corner.

It's usually possible to charge across a ZOC to make contact with another element. Thus, the lone enemy psiloi will not necessarily keep your knights from charging the main enemy line.

It's really fun.


Lawson

[Mike Porter]

I got my DBMM rulebook in the mail yesterday and just have a few initial thoughts.

First, I was expecting that the book would be illegible given some of the complaints I have heard about DBMM. However, I own the DBM rules and so far I have found DBMM much easier to read and understand.

Second, and this has been brought up somewhere else, the gradings, CF's, etc., are really no more difficult to process than a typical GW product. Compared to DBA, there are a ton of modifiers, but compared to more "robust" games I think they are reasonable. I am thankful for the diagrams and QR sheet at the back of the rulebook though...;)

Next step is to finish reading the rules and play a few solo games. I'm sure I'll have some more thoughts on the rules as I read them thoroughly.

[Pavane]

Mike,

Glad to hear you have your book. I'll plan to be in Cleveland on the weekend of Feb. 2nd. Perhaps we can slip in a trial game on Saturday.

Will

[Mike Porter]

Tempting Will...but I believe I will busy winning HoTT Wax '08 down in Columbus that day. In case things change, I have your cell and can give you a call.

I took a little break today and calculated a DBMM100 list (I think the lists are actually the hardest thing to understand!) from the lists Phil has offered recently.

Alexandrian Macedonian 352 BC (124.5AP)

1x C-in-C Reg. Kn (F)
2x Companions Reg. Kn (F)
1x Prodromoi Reg. LH (O)
11x Phalangites Reg. Pk (O)
1x Cretans Reg. Ps (O)
1x Agrianians Reg. Ps (O)
2x Thessalian Cav. Reg. Cv (O)
2x Hypaspists Reg. Ax (S)
2x Allied Greek Hoplites Irr. Sp (I)
1x Camp Irr. Bge (O)

6 mounted elements, 13 heavy foot, 4 lights. Probably not that great, but at least I get decent frontage with the pikes.

23 elements for a DBMM 100 (75-125AP) army, so it's about the size of a Double DBA army to play the max DBMM100 army.

[Pavane]

Mike,
Too bad. I put together a speadsheet of all of the DBA/BBDBA armies that were "expensive" enough to make a 100AP DBMM army, so making lists is now easy. I could put this 125AP Classical Indian army together:

1 x C-in-C w/Elephants - Irr El (O)
2 x Elephants - Irr El (O)
2 x Heavy Chariots - Irr Kn(S)
2 x Cavalry - Irr Cv(I)
8 x Hereditary & Mercenary Archers - Irr Bw(O)
1 x Hereditary & Mercenary Javelinmen - Irr Bd(I)
2 x Command Baggage - Irr Bge(I)

18 elements, 125AP, 27ME
Disheartened 6.9ME, Routed 9.1ME, Scattered 13.6ME

I could also do: Picts, SR-British, Norse Vikings, Later Carthaginians, and Graeco-Indians, but this is the best historical match.

[Mike Porter]

Re-did my list for this Saturday. Given that Pk in DBMM suck with only 2 ranks I had to increase their numbers in order to keep them around for a little. I can deploy them 4 wide by 4 deep.

Here is the first list:

Alexandrian Macedonian 352 BC (124.5AP)

1x C-in-C Reg. Kn (F)
2x Companions Reg. Kn (F)
1x Prodromoi Reg. LH (O)
11x Phalangites Reg. Pk (O)
1x Cretans Reg. Ps (O)
1x Agrianians Reg. Ps (O)
2x Thessalian Cav. Reg. Cv (O)
2x Hypaspists Reg. Ax (S)
2x Allied Greek Hoplites Irr. Sp (I)
1x Camp Irr. Bge (O)

New list:

Alexandrian Macedonian 352 BC (124.5AP)

1x C-in-C Reg. Kn (F)
2x Companions Reg. Kn (F)
16x Phalangites Reg. Pk (O)
1x Cretans Reg. Ps (O)
2x Thessalian Cav. Reg. Cv (O)
1x Hypaspists Reg. Ax (S)

23 elements, 124.5AP, 27.5ME
Disheartened 6.9ME, Routed 9.1ME, Shattered 13.7ME

If I understand correctly, I can choose to have no camp or baggage.

I think I'm gonna get slaughtered!

[Pavane]

Mike,

It is my understanding that baggage is optional as well. I've been thinking about that recently, with a lot of El and Kn the Classical Indians are well served with ME. My Picts have numbers, which gives a lot of ME as well. We will know better after a few games under our belts.

I am in Toronto, en route to Cleveland tomorrow evening. I brought all of my Indian elements so we can play around with different deployents given time. I'll read the rules again on Friday so that we hopefully make too many mistakes. I'm comfortable with the combat. I need to practice to movement limitations/opportunities, which are very different from DBA.

[Mike Porter]

I need to practice to movement limitations/opportunities, which are very different from DBA.

I'm really anxious to see what it looks like on the table. I'm hoping the culmination of this thread will be a compare and contrast battle report.

[Pavane]

I think that others will find that interesting. Pike armies may be at a disadvantage at 100AP. They are certainly better in BBDBA than they are in DBA because their flanks are further apart.

My Pictish 400AP army has 40 Pk(F), and I am looking forward to trying them out soon. Dave May has several DBM armies including LIR, which would make a fine matchup. If only we weren't 2hr away from each other.

[Mike Porter]

I think that others will find that interesting. Pike armies may be at a disadvantage at 100AP.

Agreed, but they move fast without being a pip-sink (as long as they march straight ahead). I think key to using Pk w/DBMM 100 will be finding the right support. I'm eager to see how the mounted in my army performs with them.

[Pavane]

Notice that El are not the automatic +1 PIP as in DBA, although they are always Irr unless a General (which may be Reg). Perhaps Reg armies are also at a slight disadvantage in DBMM100 as they do not have other commands to share their PIP dice with, which is built into their cost.

I am looking forward to this as well! It is not that I am bored with DBA; just that I would like to play with more elements once in a while. Next time, let's try BBDBA. I have three matched pairs: Picts (w/ optional Scots-Irish or Early Anglo-Saxon allies), Sub-Roman British (w/ optional Norse Viking allies), and Norse Vikings (w/ optional Pre-Feudal Scots and Anglo-Danish allies). Of course, any of these can be played as DBMM100 without the allies.

[Mike Porter]

I am looking forward to this as well! It is not that I am bored with DBA; just that I would like to play with more elements once in a while.

For me, I'm trying a game like DBMM is because there is a chance to add a bit more historicity to the game. Personally, I would like to play Maurikean's in DBMM because they can use strategies that were historically used, but are absent from DBA. But DBMM has in no way diminished my zeal for DBA!

[Mike Porter]

Oh, the humanity! Wait till you guys see what happened!

[Little Caesar]

DBMM is a good game because it eliminates the geometry apsect of DBA and DBM. It forces you to make your troops behave in a realistic way and be a good general instead of just being good at spatial relations.

The 200 point variety is played on a regulation (non-WADBAG) sized board with about 40 or so elements, depending on how expensive they are. (It actually goes from 180-240 AP.) My Later Cartho's today had 46 elements, including 3 generals and 3 baggage. The HYW English list I was contemplating using would have had less than 30, maybe less than 25. Expensive troops at 6 or 7 points for a Bw element and a army minimum of around 12 or so.

While I enjoy the 'a knight is a knight is a knight' aspect of DBA, indeed I think it is one of it's charm's, it is fun to have different grades within troop types.

I have yet to try the 100 point variety but this thread has intrigued me.
Steve

[Pavane]

Oh, the humanity! Wait till you guys see what happened!
Thanks again Mike. I couldn't have asked for a better opponent to learn DBMM with. We seem to have the same tolerance for looking up rules.

Here is what we did wrong (based on a quick re-read):
• PIP Expenditures:
- Pikes are 0 PIPs for 1st march, not tactical move. We allowed your Pk to use the free PIP for tactical moves
- Command Difficulty when General starts bound in close combat. My El-Gen was in close combat for most of the game and your Kn-Gen started fighting near the end.
- Irregular Ineptness penalty for holding troops. I held my impetuous Irregular heavy chariots Kn(S) a couple of times for one PIP.
• March Moves: March move within 400p and into combat with non-LH, non-Ps. We didn't limit your march moves, and allowed you to march into close combat (to my chagrin). You can only march into combat with LH/Ps or into flank/rear contact.
• Spontaneous Advance: Spontaneous advance out of non-moving column to overlap. Your column of Kn had contacted my heavy chariot, so on your subsequent bound the second Kn could have moved into overlap for 0 PIP.
• Distant Combat: The target choice for a shooter is the enemy element closest to straight ahead. At one time my four Bw shot at one of your Cv as multiple shooters, but there was a second Cv that one of the aiding shooters should have fired at as a primary shooter.
• Grading Factors: You often forgot your Ax were (S).
• Overlaps:
- I often forgot that there were no overlaps vs. mounted in my own bound
- We missed completely that no overlaps on Kn(F) in wedge
- El only provide overlap support for El and foot
• DBMM100 deployment: We used the main rules (modified for board size), when there are clear deployment distance limits.
• I'm not sure if the army (command) can be broken command in DBMM100. They mention Disheartened and Defeated, but notice that the conditions are greater than or equal to, where the main rules are greater than only. I wonder if Broken applies. We will have to ask on the DBMMlist.

All in all, not bad for our first game.

[edit: spelling]

[Mike Porter]

bad post, please delete

[Mike Porter]

For some stupid reason, I can't post a picture.

[Mike Porter]

• Distant Combat: The target choice for a shooter is the enemy element closest to straight ahead. At one time my four Bw shot at one of your Cv as multiple shooters, but there was a second Cv that one of the aiding shooters should have fired at as a primary shooter.


Oh dear Lord, don't remind me!:p

I uploaded the pics and will probably have a report done tomorrow night on my blog. What a great time I had today Will!

[nixon1411]

Mike, Will,

If it's any consolation, the mistakes you mention above are almost identical to the things we missed in our early games.
Sounds like you had fun though, which is the main thing..

cheers
Bob Mcleish

[Pavane]

Bob,

Yes, we did have a lot of fun. Mike has never played DBM, and I have only played one game, so some of the rules are new to us like march moving and shooter targeting. On the other hand we do not have any bad habits to unlearn.

[Mike Porter]

I posted a battle report with pics on my site. Here (http://dbagamer.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/dbmm100/).

[Xavi]

Looks good! Looks like Double DBA.

Very informative article. :)

Cheers,

Xavi

[Walliche]

Hello!...

Sorry to interrupt, but where to purchase DBMM in the USA? Or is Caliver the only source?...

Cheers, R.

[Mike Porter]

On Military Matters (http://onmilitarymatters.com/) is very good.