Allied Littoral Landing Questions

[Pavane]

I know that this has been discussed before, but I didn't see a definitive answer in my search.

Assuming that a waterway has been deployed:

Can a non-littoral allied command perform a landing if the non-allied command is littoral?

Can a littoral allied command perform a landing if the non-allied command is non-littoral?

[El' Jocko]

I don't believe that a consensus opinion has been reached. At this point it's up to the individual umpire to decide. That would only change if the NASAMW triumvirate made a ruling (and that would only affect NASAMW events, of course).

- Jack

[Pavane]

That is what I thought. Perhaps David will rule here before the tournament as a courtesy.

For the record, I think that if a command is littoral it can land a force. If only the C-in-C's command is littoral, that is not good enough to float an allied command.

[David Kuijt]

The common-sense "they've got the boats and the sailors" response would be that any command with Littoral topography can contribute a littoral force, regardless of the home topography of any other command.

Whether this sense is common to you depends upon your version of sense frequency.


This issue has never come up in play, although I think DS and I discussed the complexities of the issue six weeks or so ago.

Roland -- what do you think? You're the Fall-In Dude Of Great Import (Fidogi)

[Barron of Ideas]

I know that this has been discussed before, but I didn't see a definitive answer in my search.

Assuming that a waterway has been deployed:

Can a non-littoral allied command perform a landing if the non-allied command is littoral?

Can a littoral allied command perform a landing if the non-allied command is non-littoral?

Being a person of relatively little fame, perhaps I should not stick my two cents in here, but, well, I just can't resist this one. We have the rule book, it says what armies are Littoral, and thus can make amphibious landings. The other armies can't. Allies who are Littoral can make landings, Allies who aren't can not. Just follow the literal Litoral rules.

[Pavane]

It came up in a game yesterday. The attacker was arable with littoral ally. The defender was littoral with non-littoral ally. The terrain was deployed, including the mandatory waterway, and then the two littoral commands. No elements were held back for a landing.

We discussed whether the non-litoral defending command could make a landing, as it had an influence on the attacker's deployment. Rather than slow up the game we decided that the primary army type decided whether any command (allied included) could make a landing.

Upon further thought, it makes more sense to me to allow any command that is littoral to make a landing if there is a waterway. In the case of an arable defender, they could lay down an optional waterway allowing any littoral allies to make a landing. This makes sense, in that the defender's arable terrain has a sea coast or major river, and the littoral ally joins him there for battle.

[El' Jocko]

Being a person of relatively little fame, perhaps I should not stick my two cents in here, but, well, I just can't resist this one. We have the rule book, it says what armies are Littoral, and thus can make amphibious landings. The other armies can't. Allies who are Littoral can make landings, Allies who aren't can not. Just follow the literal Litoral rules.

I think your reasoning is good here--this is the position that I put forward in previous discussions. But others have pointed out that in the Deployment rules, it says that "If any side's home topography is LITTORAL, it can reserve 0-4 elements..." So it could also reasoned that the side is entitled to the littoral landing. The BBDBA rules are silent on this. So we have two reasonable ways to read the rule, there's no consensus on which one is correct, we have no established way of playing it, and we don't have a ruling from the triumvirate. So that pretty much leaves it up to individual umpires (in tournament settings) and up to individual or club preference (in other settings).

- Jack

[David Kuijt]

Upon further thought, it makes more sense to me to allow any command that is littoral to make a landing if there is a waterway.

I think that's the most sensible way. As Jack says, the rules are silent, and it would be possible to interpret what they say another way. But in the absence of any NASAMW standard interp, I think the most sensible method is that only Littoral troops can land Littoral Landings, and that any force of Littoral troops can land Littoral Landings if a WW is present. Irrespective of the topography of the C-in-C.

[David Schlanger]

I'm a little slow finding threads of interest these days, otherwise I would have responded sooner.

This exact issue came up during a discussion DK and I had a few weeks back when we were considering army possibilities for the event at Fall In. I did discuss the issue with the Triumvirate as well.

As was mentioned earlier, the rules are not 100% clear.

For Fall In and any future NASAMW BBDBA events, we will allow littoral landings for the commands that are littoral.

So, assuming a waterway is on the board...
If the ally is littoral but the main army is not, only the ally may perform a littoral landing.
If the main army is littoral but the ally is not, only the main army may perform a landing.

I am hoping to add a BBDBA Clarifications page to the NASAMW website sometime in the near future... and this will be listed there.

DS

[Mike Porter]

Thanks David. I hope that becomes the official clarification since IMHO it makes the most sense.

[Barron of Ideas]

I'm a little slow finding threads of interest these days, otherwise I would have responded sooner.

This exact issue came up during a discussion DK and I had a few weeks back when we were considering army possibilities for the event at Fall In. I did discuss the issue with the Triumvirate as well.

As was mentioned earlier, the rules are not 100% clear.

For Fall In and any future NASAMW BBDBA events, we will allow littoral landings for the commands that are littoral.

So, assuming a waterway is on the board...
If the ally is littoral but the main army is not, only the ally may perform a littoral landing.
If the main army is littoral but the ally is not, only the main army may perform a landing.

I am hoping to add a BBDBA Clarifications page to the NASAMW website sometime in the near future... and this will be listed there.

DS


I doubt this is really an issue, but for completeness, only one littoral landing is allowed per side, even if both the main and allied armies are littoral. At most 4 stands can land and on the firsr bound for that side. There is the possiblity that an ally could land 1 to 3 stands and the Main army land stands so that the total number landed would be four or less. If multiple commands make landings, each pays a PIP, and all the forces landed must be in a single, legal group.

Or am I wrong? Could each of the 3 commands of an 36 stand Egyptian army land four stands, in different locations? How many of the twelve would need their edges adjacent to the Waterway? Some of this unexplored territory is the reason I think at most four stands could land, but on the other hand, out of a force of 12 stands, the standard DBA rules allow 4 stands to land, perhaps scaling up Big Battle DBA intends to allow one third of the Littoral forces make amphibious landings. I haven't seen this done, or desired anywhere, but my experience with BBDBA is not extensive. What is the ruling, lets get it in writing before someone decides to stretch the rules.

After all it does say, "we will allow littoral landings for COMMANDS that are littoral." As there are three commands in most BBBDA armies, does each get its own landing? I think not, but should we say something slightly different to clarify?

[Pavane]

Thanks Triumverate.

[Bob. (and his dog)]

I agree with Dave, armies are Littoral, not sides. Thus only armies that are littoral can make a landing.
Each side has a main army, with 1 or 2 allies. The terrain types to be placed by the defender are those of the main army. If the main army can place a WW but is not Littoral and an ally is, then the ally can make a landing.


The question of how many of the three armies can make a landing has been often discussed. Usually the result is that there can be only 1 landing per side. Just as there can be only 0-2 pairs switched.

In the BB rules is the statement that the BB version differs only from the statndard version as "described below." There is nothing below to indicate that there can be more than 0-4 elements in the landing and not more than 0-2 switches.

By the way Barron, I cannot find any reference to "we will allow littoral landings for COMMANDS that are littoral."

[David Schlanger]

He's quoting me, but taking it a bit differently than I intended. The point is that an ally that is Littoral can make a landing... often referred to as the ally command. If the main army is Littoral, obviously it can make a landing. One landing per game (0-4 elements).... as per the regular rules.

DS

[Barron of Ideas]

He's quoting me, but taking it a bit differently than I intended. The point is that an ally that is Littoral can make a landing... often referred to as the ally command. If the main army is Littoral, obviously it can make a landing. One landing per game (0-4 elements).... as per the regular rules.

DS

I asume on this basis that only one command, even if two or three are Littoral can participate in the landing, For example, you could not land all 3 generals (for some reason, perhaps their plus one in combat) in one landing, even if each command paid one PIP. Of course it couldn't be a very deep landing as their commands must be set up within 12 inches of their General. (Perhaps on that basis, Generals can't make landings at all?) No matter, for some reason or other, one wishes multiple commands to land troops. If so, as long as not more than 4 stands land, and a PIP is paid by each command whose stands participate, and the landing forms a legal group with at least two stands having an edge on the Waterway, It may be possible for multicommand landings. Maybe with two allies, all 3 commands Littoral, and you want amphibious elephants.

Or not, I am looking for a ruling, not advocating anything kinky.

[David Kuijt]

I asume on this basis that only one command, even if two or three are Littoral can participate in the landing, [...] even if each command paid one PIP. Of course it couldn't be a very deep landing as their commands must be set up within 12 inches of their General.

Two errors in the above:

1) a littoral landing is a 1-pip group move on the first bound. You cannot make a group move of two commands; therefore a littoral landing must be a single command.

2) reserved elements are not even on the board in the deployment phase, which is when the 12-inch thing is applied. Littoral landings are a move, not a deployment.