Mark Sergeyev's Paper Miniatures

[Chris Brantley]

Mark Sergeyev has an entrepreneurial idea that he'd like to try out on a Fanatici focus group. He plans to offer historically accurate ancient/medieval figures suitable for DBA armies (and other game systems) in an electronic file that could be sized, printed and glued to bases as desired. He is exploring both traditional flat counters ($2 per sheet) and figures that would stand upright on a base ($5 per sheet).

Check out the Egyptian Phalanx sheet:
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/eyecandy/promos/sergeyev1.jpg

And a mounted Egyptian Chariot (printed in black and white)

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/eyecandy/promos/sergeyev2.jpg

Mark wants to know what you think. Would you buy products such as this? Do you prefer counters or upright figures? Any comments or suggestions?

[Andrechin]

Definitely upright figures!

As marketing, I would think it would have some chances if a joint venture with a wargame magazine (which for example make printed sheets as an insert).

After you have spread some armies like that around, maybe there will be people open to pay for additional ones.

Ah... I guess it would be nice to have also some "texture sheet" for the bases

[Paul A. Hannah]

I wish Mark well with his product, but I doubt I will be a customer. They look okay, but they're still paper, and I'm just a cold, hard, lead kind of guy. :D

For me, half the fun is in painting the minis, so, just as I don't buy painted figures, I'm not likely to start buying the upright paper figures in lieu of miniatures. (There is a wee small chance I would consider buying boardgame counters, but I would use those in some sort of campaign game, not a tactical battle.)

[ October 24, 2003, 04:03: Message edited by: Paul A. Hannah ]

[Andrew Davidge]

I think the these paper miniatures look very good indeed, and I can certainly see a market for them. I too wish Mark Sergeyev every success with this venture, but have to say that I would not buy any.

For me, a major part of the enjoyment I get from my hobby is collecting and painting the model soldiers - I wouldn't want to lose that!

Andrew

[Joe Mauloni]

The artwork is quite nice, but I probably won't be a customer either. I also prefer solid figures, and since I use plastics at about 40 figs for $8 US there's no price incentive.
The idea of using them as inserts or starter sets sound good.
Joe

[David Crowell]

I am a great fan of paper figures. I saw the chariot posted in colour next to metals on TMP and to look twice to see that it was paper. I might but some of these.

For more on gaming with paper figures and feed back from paper figure fans contact the Brabantini yahoo group.

Also it might be worth advertising these to teh various card modelr communitees. They might prove a bigger and better market than traditional wargamers. Most wargamers would, I suspect, be more likely to buy the counters than teh figures. With cardmodelers it would likely be the other way round.

[Andrechin]

From the answers given here it is clear this product will have little marked with experienced wargamers, but can be an introduction for newcomer.

Anyhow, I am not an experienced wargamer and I do not like to paint, so I could be a customer. I do not know if the plan is to sell printed copies of graphics files that the customer can print at his
own willing.

I would not pay $5 for a printed sheet, but maybe for a full army printed on quality paper.

If selling a file with a sheet at $5, I guess that a full DBA army will cost about the same as in plastic (for example to complete a NKE army I expect to need at least 3 sheets: the Bd you have shown, one for the chariots and one for the Bw+Wb).

I would probably more willing to buy single figure images so that I can tune the cost of an army according to the variety of poses (so I may choose one pose for all Bds and pay little or many variants and pay more), but I cannot really give a price ($0.50 for infantry? $1.5 for a chariot?).

...and

I would appreciate if I can find a range with three of four contemporary armies, so that my paper figures can fight each others.

[Badger]

I'm quite a fan of cardboard armies, having several "print&play" armies downloaded for free from the web. As Joe Mauloni points out they'd really need to be cheaper than good plastics for me to be interested in actually buying them.

I wonder, too, about the advisability of their being created so as to show the figure in profile rather than from the front and back. Considering that in play one's point of view of the figures is more likely to be roughly from directly behind or directly in front of the figures, rather than (again roughly) squarely on one flank or the other, it makes more sense to me to set them up on paper to be viewed that way rather than in profile.

I'd also recommend that they be laid out on the page adjacent to each other such that those wanting to base them according to the DBx conventions (which are used in numerous other gaming systems now, too) would be able to cut them out in blocks of the appropriate number per element base.

Lastly, it would also be a good idea (IMNSHO) to design them to stand not in a vertical plane on their bases (which would be highly susceptible to bending to varying degrees, which could end up looking pretty ugly), but rather design them so the front and back form the two long sides of a narrow isoceles triangle, with another bit (5mm deep in 15mm scale?) acting as a base of sorts, which would also facilitate gluing them to whatever sort of base one wanted to use.

../\
./..\
/___\

Something like this, if the periods are ignored except for taking equal space as the slashes...

I think cardboard can be an excellent way of introducing people to the game by enabling them to economically and quickly get a number of different armies to play with. Once they're hooked, then after a while they're probably going to move to plastic and/or lead miniatures, but with cardboard they can at least have armies to put on the table while they're getting their 3D armies painted!

P.S. -- I also agree with Attilio that it would help to have several contemporary armies that were historical opponents (or possibly allies).

[ October 24, 2003, 18:01: Message edited by: Badger ]

[imported_Grant Dyck]

While the images are quite good, I wouldn't purchase the product, particularly at the indicated prices. I simply prefer the feel of real metal minis. Or high quality plastics.

But I still wish the manufacturer all the best and good luck - perhaps he would have a better market in selling entire armies with all options, which might even have value as a painting guide? That I would buy.

Grant

[mickw]

Just a few thoughts.
Counters are better I think, not paper but a nicely produced thick (5mm)cardboard/plastic product, cut to size or perforated and waxed or laminated.
Representative or generic? Both?
I think the representative counters produced by Mog and Will Thompsen by scanning minis are a bit unclear while Alex Gartinski's are clear but scarcely aesthetic.
Sell as one DBA Army per sheet or x number of specific troop types for DBM?
Could such a "cottage industry" pay?
Would such be practical?
Any takers?

[Craig Cunningham]

Mark Sergayev is already selling these figures for $20 for a LIFETIME subscription at Imagine Image Multimedia. His examples are from that site. As a subscriber, you can download as many images as you wish for your one-time fee.

If you want FREE paper figures the Brabantini group and Miniatures in Paper are very good sites, with a lot of very good artwork.

Craig

[Andrechin]

Originally posted by Craig Cunningham:
Mark Sergayev is already selling these figures for $20 for a LIFETIME subscription at Imagine Image Multimedia. His examples are from that site. As a subscriber, you can download as many images as you wish for your one-time fee.
I did not know that.
for people lazy enough to search the link is
http://www.imagineimage.org
and follow to the Paper general.

I guess it covers very well the biblical period. I'll consider that when I have finished my origami Abyssinians for Horse Foot and Guns.

[<Mog>]

Hi mickw - nice that you thought the images were scanned in minis!! Actually they were drawn with a mouse. I haven't updated for a long time but have toyed with uprights, groups of 40mm frontage to be folded into a triangle, 'figs' viewed from front/back. One trick is to weight them down. (don't play with paper armies if you're feeling sneezy!)
Mog (mogworld)


Originally posted by mickw:
Just a few thoughts.
Counters are better I think, not paper but a nicely produced thick (5mm)cardboard/plastic product, cut to size or perforated and waxed or laminated.
Representative or generic? Both?
I think the representative counters produced by Mog and Will Thompsen by scanning minis are a bit unclear while Alex Gartinski's are clear but scarcely aesthetic.
Sell as one DBA Army per sheet or x number of specific troop types for DBM?
Could such a "cottage industry" pay?
Would such be practical?
Any takers?

[mickw]

Impressed with your artistic skills Mog. What program do you use for your masterpieces?

[APHooper]

These look like they might be fun to play with, but you would have to print them in army pairs, so you would have two paper armies to face each other. They might also be a really cool form of painting guide in more or less actual size. Impressive!

Andy Hooper
Seattle

[Chris Brantley]

Mark Sergeyev continues to refine his ideas for paper armies. His target product is now offering single sheet DBA armies, such as this sample Illyrian army (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/eyecandy/promos/marksergeyevillyrians.jpg) that could be downloaded for as low as $3-5 U.S. dollars. The sample shows figures that can be folded and glued to a base to create two dimensional elements, but he is also working on figures that can be folded to create triangular shapes. Mark continues to invite your feedback on price, design, market, etc.

[ November 24, 2003, 10:49: Message edited by: Chris Brantley ]

[David Crowell]

I would buy and use these for two purposes, one to try out a new army before getting the metal. Two I think they would be great for travel. I have often wished for a good way to put a pair of DBA armies in my brief case. This could be it.

[Ted Galacci]

I think it would be a good safe way to introduce younger players to DBA. Safer for Dad's figures too.

Ted in PA