Competition at Spring Offensive, Stockton, 6 May 2006

[SteveW]

It is proposed to hold a competition at Spring Offensive, Stockton, 6 May 2006. The format is to be discussed, but if you are interested, or have any suggestions, then please post or e-mail me.

[ December 03, 2005, 10:51: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[AlanYork]

Yes, assuming I have no unavoidable commitments you can sign me up for that. I can't speak for Adrian of course but I'm sure he will feel the same.

[John the Red]

Hi

Really enjoyed the competition, well done for organising it Steve. Should be up for another go at the Spring stockton show.

For what its worth, i would prefer to stick with a themed event and perhaps dropping down to double DBA, which might speed up the games a little and give the traders an opportunity to get some of my money.

Perhaps themes as in armies with one of the DBA books or a geographic focus as per this one just gone.

Thanks to all the other players for the good spirit the games were played in and for helping me and Paul who had nt played BBDBA before better understand what was going on !!

cheers

[SteveW]

Double DBA would be an option (this is the kind of DBA I normally play, albeit an ally command is also allowed. I like having three Generals so that one commands each part of the battle line (left, centre and right). To keep the command structure but cut down on the number of elements, we could play with 30 elements by allowing 2 elements to be dropped from each 12 element command.

I do get the feeling that in open competition, armies with a significant proportion of Knights would be the most popular choice. To make the potential army choice wider, we could restrict eligible armies to those with few or no knights.

A better idea might be just to count the number of Knights in an army, and then just list the armies according to the number of Knights present. Then, when it comes to matching armies to play each other, the top two play each other, then the next two etc. In the next round, the army with the most Knights plays number three on the list, number two plays number 4 on the list etc. For this to work, we would need 6-8 armies.

With the smaller armies, we might manage three games, and possibly have the competition for single rather than pairs of players.

Any ideas for themes?

[ December 04, 2005, 14:10: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[Jospee]

Hi Steve, I'd prefer BBDBA singles - open event, strictly limit the play time to two hours including set up. Random first draw, second draw based on results of the first using a 'swiss chess' (i think thats what they call it in DBM comps) method where the successsful players from game one play each other in game two.
Either invent a scoring system or play win lose draw with some sort of count back for tie breaks - say casualties taken. Award a separate prize for most enemy generals killed or whatever.

Double DBA or funny draw mechanisms are a turn off for me and themes do limit the potential player pool.

Cheers, J.

[ December 05, 2005, 04:57: Message edited by: Jospee ]

[SteveW]

Hi Jospee,

Hopefully I will not be playing next time (but If the numbers are not right I might have to).

Straight BBDBA 'singles' could very well be the most likely preferred option. Timing wise, even with a strict 2 hour time limit, I think that we would be pushed to get three games in during the day (10am-4pm). Two would be more comfortable, allowing time slippage and for players to wander around.

An option for 2006 might be to run the competition over Spring Offensive and Parade Ground, with each player fighting twice at each event. Four games is more likely to give an overall winner, but spreading over two shows would have drawbacks. Just a thought.

Personally, I am frightened at the prospect of a totally open competition with unrestricted army choice. All those pesky Knight combinations. My ideal theme might be Books 1 & 2.

[SteveW]

Assuming that we can get the tables, who would like to play?

It is anticipated that this will be a 'singles' competition, one player, one BBDBA army.

Any army from books I-IV will be eligible.

Each player will play 2 games (due to the time constraints), winners from the first game playing losers. There will have to be system to decide the winner in the event of a tie. This is up for discussion.

Gateshead Gaming have provisionally agreed to sponsor the event again and to provide a DBA army as the prize. The trophy won by Paul Richardson last November will be up for grabs. Hopefully Paul will be available to defend his possession of the trophy.

House rules can also be discussed.

[Jospee]

Steve, winners playing losers is not a good idea, look what happened last time...

AFAIK Paul Richardson is intending to come, as are myself and Stuart + maybe 2 more from Darlo
J.

[SteveW]

The reason we feel that it is better for winners to play losers, is that if you lose the first game you are effectively out of the running to win. Get a bad opponent first and it could be time for the proverbial 'early bath'. I would like to hear what the others think

[SteveW]

Hello gamers,

I sent off the request for the tables at Spring Offensive a couple of weeks ago. I also asked for tables the November show as well.

I fully expect that we will get the tables (enough for 4 games/8 players at least).

I am aware that at this time, some of you may not be able to be certain of being able to attend. Having said that, if you are interested in participating and likely to be able to attend, could you let me know. If we are short of players the sponsors (Gateshead Gaming) and myself will try to advertise more widely for participants.

[SteveW]

I have come up with the following to decide the winner of the competition:

Award the winner of a game 12 points.

Award the defender 1 point for each enemy killed or demoralised at the end of the game, up to a maximum of 11 points.

Armies are to be declared prior to the event. The armies will be sorted by the number of Kn elements to be used, from highest to lowest.

In the first round, No 1 on the list plays 2, 3 plays 4 etc.

In the second round the winner between 1 and 2 plays the loser between 3 and 4 and the loser between 1 and 2 players the winner between 3 and 4 etc.

The overall competition winner is the player with the most points. In the event of a tie, the player having lost the least number of elements will be the winner.

[Jospee]

Hi - what happens in a draw?(timed out game...)
J.

[SteveW]

Assuming 2-2 1/2 hours per game could be allowed, and experience tells us that longer games are likely, then having to curtail a game short of completion may have to be done. This is something I would prefer not to happen, but it may.

My suggestion is in this case that players are awarded 1 point for each of their opponent's elements destroyed or demoralised up to a maximum of 11 points. In the event of both players having destroyed or demoralised more than 11 elements, award 11 and 10 points unless they are equal in which case 10 points each.

Hopefully this scoring system should give enough differentiation to give an overall winner and encourage aggressive and speedy play.

I am aiming for 8 players, none of whom is me. I would prefer to wander the tables and if called on adjudicate if required. Although the way we did it last time, asking advice from the other players worked.

[Bob. (and his dog)]

Organizers might want to consider looking at how the North American Society of Ancient and Medieval Wargamers handle Big Battle tournaments. We've done these at Cold Wars and Historicon, since the rules were released, so quite a bit of experience. These are doubles game so the timing is different from a singles match. Typically we get 5 rounds in a morning and afternoon.

There is a well developed scoring system. Also some modifications to the rules for set up and winning/losing that facilitate tournament play. See it all here
http://fanaticus.org/dba/guides/NASAMWBigBattleDBA.html

[SteveW]

Thanks Bob. Just had a look.

[SteveW]

I spoke to Paul Richardson, the current holder of the Gateshead Gaming BBDBA Trophy last night. He will be attending Spring Offensive and defending his possession of the trophy.

If you are interested in playing in the competition, please let me know. If possible, let me know your army.

I am hoping to obtain an unpainted DBA Hun army (II/80a - Attila's)as the prize.

This time there will be no restriction on the army used, it will be a single's event (one player commanding 36 elements. No river or BUA terrain allowed. There will be two rounds of games, one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

Come and enjoy the day.

[AlanYork]

Work permitting, I will be there Steve. I'll also ask Adrian who partnered me in the Doubles BBDBA last year if he wants to come.

[SteveW]

Thanks Alan. Hopefully Adrian is available as well. I understand about your commitments, a provisional yes is fine. People can confirm closer to the day, and numbers permitting, late entries may also be available.

[John the Red]

Hi Steve

I hope to be there, a couple of domestic commmitments may intervene, so will have to confirm closer to the time.

Probably Anglo-Normans again or one of my Islamic armies (Ottomans or Ghavazids)

cheers

[SteveW]

Eeeeexceeellent John!

I've let the matter drop since we last discussed it, but how about a warm up game before Spring Offensive?

[John the Red]

Hi

practice game would be good, assuming we are looking at a club nite at Redcar Institute ??

Could probably do the 29th if that was any good ?

let us know who you want to field and see if we can do something in period

cheers

[SteveW]

Hi John,
I will check about the 29th and let you know. Should not be a problem. I am looking forward to the game already. Might go Parthian, LIR, Ancient Brit or German. Ideally something to complement what you have.

[John the Red]

Hi

I should be able to field a fall of the Roman empire period BBDBA army, which looks like it would match up with one of those you mention

Most of my others runners are Crusader period Franks, Muslims and Byzantines et al with some late medivals for good measure. Happy to do the end of Roma though

[AlanYork]

It's looking fairly good for me attending, so could you possibly post us some directions for getting there nearer the time Steve? Just as an aide memoir.

[ April 15, 2006, 21:20: Message edited by: AlanYork ]

[SteveW]

For John the Red,

Saturday 22 Apr would be good for a BBDBA game at the Redcar club (Literary Institute) as I write if you are available then. Otherwise I shall check next week about the 29th. If I hear that there is a problem I will let you know. Doors open at 7pm. Walk in through the two pairs of doors, and the room is the first one on the left.

[ April 16, 2006, 16:17: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[John the Red]

Hi Steve

I have a prior event on the 22nd, its pretty much the w/end of the 29th only for us i am afraid

let us know if thats ok for you


cheers

[SteveW]

For John the Red,

I thought that I would ask if you were free that week. I will check next week about the 29th, just to make sure that the club is going to meet. I've been caught out before when no one else turned up ..... As you might gather, we do not plan much in advance.

Steve

[SteveW]

I pulled this off an earlier thread.How to get to Stockton Leisure Centre.

The shortest way to the venue from the south, up the A19, over the flyover crossing the River Tees, while on the flyover get yourself into the left hand lane and take the first left (off the flyover). Keep going up Portrack Lane past a collection of ind estates / shops etc, over 2 roundabout and one set of lights until you reach a final roundabout, turn right here and it will bring you out to a T juntion, turn right and follow road to a large roundabout where you want to head Right,down Norton Road. After bout 200m you will see a signpost to Leisure Centre, you have successfully arrived. Park in the official car park if at all possible. Thanks to John the Red.

More straight forward route, stay on the A19, bout 1/2 mile on from the Tees flyover, take the first turn off, sign posted to Billingham and Norton. Stay left/straight on at the roundabout at the end of the slip road, up the hill to another roundabout straight on into Norton Road and keep going until you see the Sports Centre on your left.

[SteveW]

For John to Red.

Saturday 29th April is fine.

If I can get the bases finished, I fancy fielding my new army, Later Visigothic.

Steve

[SteveW]

As things stand at the monent, the 'confirmed' participants are

Paul Richardson
Alan York
John the Red

(and myself if there is an odd number).

If anyone has been missed, has a friend who would like to participate then please get in touch.

If anyone cannot make up an army, let me know and I may be able to help out.

I will post some more information at the weekend.

[John the Red]

Hi Steve

Sorry to be a party pooper but my attendance at Stockton is in serious doubt, (family commitments) best to count us out for the mo. If things change i will get back.

I am still on for the 29th mind, if you can remind us where the Redcar Institute is located

[SteveW]

For John the Red.

The Lit is almost opposite the Kwik Save Store on West Dyke Road (the one that leads to the town clock tower). If you park the Morrison's store car park or the public one on the road opposite, you are just about there (there is a small car park next to the Lit). The Kwik Save store front is opposite the Lit, which is marked by large white letters.

I am looking forward to Saturday, will probably go Visigothic.

[AlanYork]

Adrian is a "probable", I'll know for definate mid week.

Regards
Alan

[SteveW]

Thanks Alan. Tell Adrian I hope that he can make it.

[wodge]

is there a list of what else is on at Spring offensive? Which figure companies are attending etc..

[SteveW]

Hi Wodge,

Click the link

http://www.stocktonshows.co.uk/SO%20Leaflet.htm

to see the traders

If you interested in playing, drop me a line. If you think that you might be too inexperienced, do not worry, the other players are their to have an enjoyable couple of games.

[ May 02, 2006, 14:51: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[AlanYork]

Well Adrian can't make it but I can. My only concern is that with the people who have had to drop out, is it still a "viable" tourney? Would it maybe be better to postpone it until a later show when more people are available? The fact we had 8 players last time certainly indicates to me that BBDBA has a decent following. Certainly we would need a minimum of 4 players on Saturday. I think we've been a bit unlucky here with family and work commitments, there is certainly an interest in BBDBA here in York though. I'll try and see if there is anybody else who is free to come, like I said, it's just appalling luck with the timing.

[ May 02, 2006, 15:08: Message edited by: AlanYork ]

[SteveW]

Four players is the minimum. With yourself Alan, Paul Richardson and myself makes three. One more and I would be happy and we can play, two more would be excellent (I would not have to play). I shall telephone Paul Richardson again his week to make sure that he will be attending. I will post any updates on the situation.

I have already asked for space at the November show; the intention is to play and award the trophy twice a year. I will be disappointed if we cannot get at least four players.

[wodge]

I have plenty experience painting armies, but have never seen the little fellas fight ;o)
Plus I will have the kids tagging along, so I'll probably watch, and who knows, another time I'll join in for a game

[SteveW]

We now have four:

Alan York
Paul Richardson
Steve W
Lee B (Redcar Club)

If anyone else turns up I can drop out.

I am looking forward to the Day.

[AlanYork]

I'm looking forward to it too. What time is the first game?

[SteveW]

The doors are officially open at 10am, but if last year is anything to go by, they will be open early.

I would hope that players could be there for 10am and ready to start the sequence of play. As soon as I know the armies to be fielded, I can pair up players for the first round.

Each player will play two games, the winners of the first games playing the losers from the other. Twelve points will be awarded for a win, whilst the loser is awarded up to a maximum 11 points based on the losses of the winner.

The game will be Big Battle DBA, played with standard DBA rules with the BBDBA modifications and others as specifically noted. The armies will be 15mm. Any army is eligible. Permissible allies may be used. BUA and Rivers are not permitted as eligible terrain.

The prize is a 13 element DBA Attila's Hun army II/80(a). The winner will also hold the Gateshead Gaming BBDBA army Trophy until the next competition in November.

Enjoy the Day.

[ May 05, 2006, 02:16: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[AlanYork]

Well I'm glad we have enough people to play now. The interest is certainly there at York's club. Had it been any other weekend I would have been able to bring Adrian and one, possibly two others who wanted to play. As it is, I am waiting on a reply from one York gamer who may want to participate.

[SteveW]

Excellent news on the possible player Alan. I shall remain flexible with the plans until we all turn up.

I shall be taking a third board and cloth - just in case it is needed.

[ May 05, 2006, 02:20: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[AlanYork]

Do we need to bring our own terrain Steve?

[SteveW]

I will be bringing a selection of foam and felt terrain pieces, trees as well as some road sections. There should be enough to go round. I will have a few Waterway sections (I used them last time). If you have nice terrain, bring and use it.

[ May 05, 2006, 18:40: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[SteveW]

Went, played, got beat but had a good time!

The games and results are

Round 1:

Ptolemaic II/20c beat LIR East II/78b
Feudal English IV/23 beat Later Visigoths II/82b

Round 2:

Ptolemaic II/20c beat Later Visigoths II/82b
Feudal English IV/23 beat LIR East II/78b

The Feudal English IV/23 (Paul Richardson) was declared the winner on points (by a large margin) over the Ptolemaic II/20c (Alan York). The Later Visigoths II/82b (Steve W) and LIR East II/78b (Alan B) both failed to win a game, although Alan York for a long time was convinced that the Visigoths were going to beat the Ptolemaics. Only the fall of the Visigothic camp to an element of Bd - which had failed to take it twice.

Paul Richardson takes the Gateshead Gaming BBDBA trophy home along with the prize of Hun DBA Army II/80a.

[ May 06, 2006, 17:49: Message edited by: SteveW ]

[AlanYork]

I had a good time too Steve, thanks for organising it.

Our game was full of surprises. I wonder how many of the Fanatici have shared my experience of rolling three 1s for PIPs and then doing it again in the same game! I seemed to score a remarkable amount of 1s for my combat rolls too. In case anyone thinks I am boasting about winning despite my bad luck, I should point out that you didn't play badly. I was sure you had played well enough to win.

My thoughts on the day.....

I liked the format of playing two battles but with one player a side this time. With two players a side it means that one of them has two commands to control, the other has just one, which doesn't give him a lot to do.

I would put in an amendment that demoralised commands can make one single element move. It stops them sitting around helpless and waiting to be slaughtered. Other than that, the rules seem to work really well in my view.

I wouldn't worry about the low turn out today. As I've said, the interest is certainly there, it was just an unlucky choice of day. Maybe, as summer comes on, people have family commitments etc. I am certainly expecting to bring one or two other wargamers from York in November.