Later Hoplite Greek armies

[Ares]

In the Allies section of the LHG enemies list, I see that the Italiot, Siciliot, and Spartan lists are prohibited from forming allied commands in a Big Battle army. However, what if one's C-in-C command is Spartan?

My reading of this restriction is that Spartans can have allies from the other eligible lists - they just can't be allies of other LHG lists.

This seems historically correct - Spartans certainly sometimes acted in conjunction with allied contingents on the Greek mainland (they didn't have everybody under their thumb), and it accords with DBM's treatment of Spartans (non-Phokian armies containing Spartan elements must have a Spartan C-in-C). However, I note that Mike Stelzer's "DBA Big Battle Allies List" interprets the restriction as meaning that Spartans can neither have nor be allies, which made me wonder how others interpreted this restriction (if indeed there's any room for interpretation - it seemed clear to me).

At first I thought this might be a nitpicky point, but it really isn't as it has implications for the C-in-C's command (and the pile of hoplites I have accumulated).

Eric

[Bill Sumruld]

I think you are accurate Eric. Certainly that would be the historical way to look at Spartans. There is a lot in the ancient historical literature about the Lacedaemonians and their allies.

[derek]

Hullo
This is an interesting one! I have read that the Spartans sent a single General to Sicily to aid the Syracusans against the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War. So a Spartan C-in-C with no troops except Syracusans!
Kind Regards
Derek

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by derek:
Hullo
This is an interesting one! I have read that the Spartans sent a single General to Sicily to aid the Syracusans against the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War. So a Spartan C-in-C with no troops except Syracusans!
Kind Regards
Derek A great example, but probably not applicable since functionally the army is no different from the syracusan/siciliot list. Only, the player-general has to play better since he's a Spartan...

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Originally posted by Ares:
In the Allies section of the LHG enemies list, I see that the Italiot, Siciliot, and Spartan lists are prohibited from forming allied commands in a Big Battle army. However, what if one's C-in-C command is Spartan?

My reading of this restriction is that Spartans can have allies from the other eligible lists - they just can't be allies of other LHG lists.

At first I thought this might be a nitpicky point, but it really isn't as it has implications for the C-in-C's command (and the pile of hoplites I have accumulated).

Eric I guess someone should name for you all the battles in which the Spartans have an ally which qualifies as a BBDBA ally during the LHG time period.

I'd have to think about it for a while. Offhand, I wonder about Brasidas in the Chalkidikean campaign. One might consider him to have been a Spartan army with a 2x sized ally of LHG "Other". Mantinea--wasn't that strictly Lakademonians versus Argos, Athens, and allies, so it wouldn't count? Leuktra--who was with the Spartans there, would they count as an ally?

I might have to check out my Greek Warfare sourcebook...

I must admit I have never thought about it since I pretty much only played campaigns.

[ February 25, 2005, 15:54: Message edited by: jldiii ]

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by Ares:

My reading of this restriction is that Spartans can have allies from the other eligible lists - they just can't be allies of other LHG lists.


Eric This is my reading of it. Its also how it works in DBM, and it seems most reasonable historically, since the Spartans rarely fought without allies. So I'd go for this reading.

Andrew