Question for Rudy Nelson

[Cremorn]

I appreciate the army lists currently on the resources page.

In particular, I am interested in finding out more about the Jacquerie.

JAQUERIE (French Peasant Army) (IV-64)
1 x 7Wb (G), 11 x 7Wb

I have found many references to the peasant revolt of 1357 put down by Charles V (when regent), and it is an interesting time.

But my first exposure to the Jacquerie was in the introduction to one of Maurice Druon's novels (She-Wolf of France?) when he describes a terrible period of France's history of flood and famine and disease when a peasant uprising swept through the country, sometime in Philippe Vth's reign (1317-1322). It was a serious threat to the viability of the state of France, and was put down by the full French army. Druon paints a picture of a mini dark age of plague and mayhem. I will get back to the forum with the few details that I have.

Rudy, can you point me to any references for finding out any more about this?
... in English :)?

84 figs! 1 stand a week, 12 weeks - easy.

Thanks,
Richard.

[Ivan]

Rudy-

The ally lists are very cool, thanks for making them available to us!

In your lists when you metion '7Wb', do you mean 5Wb or 7 Hd? There is no such thing as 7Wb in DBA. (Or DBM either, I believe!)

I believe that DBM's fast and superior grade hordes are classed as 5 figure Warbands in DBA, only ordinary grade Hordes are Hordes in DBA, with 7 figures per base.

Or is the 7Wb a house rule you have developed?

Thanks!

[rudynelson]

The choice of 7 Wb was a compromise on my part. The DBM list (IV-64) calls for a Hrde (S)and I tend to mount 7 men for Horde (S) and 5 for Horde (O or I)just as an easy way for differenation. So that is where the 7 man stand is from, for those guys who use units for both DBM or DBA and do not want to rebase. 5 Warband units are the same size as & Horde so I did not see a problem.

Why Warband and not horde? Well I feel that they had more killing power than hordes and they were armed with more deadily weapons than other Horde units. I tried to see about useing other troop types but they did not seem to fit in game terms. I would have liked to justify a LH or CAV at least for generals but they were not mounted.

Cremorn, There is actually several good movies (pre-1950s era films) on that and the similar Paris revolt. The WRG book 'Armies of the Middle Ages volume One' talks about the revolt briefly. And refers to some recored accounts of the revolt. Like you most of what I have seen in print are novels and an article or two. Sorry that I cannot be of more help.

[ March 02, 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: rudynelson ]

[rudynelson]

Revolts of 1357 and 1382 and a Rouen riot of 1418 are mentioned in the WRG books.

There are other aarmy lists from the article which have not been posted yet on Fanaticus. I think that you may find those interesting as well. Good Luck.

[ March 03, 2004, 07:59: Message edited by: rudynelson ]

[Cremorn]

Thanks for the ref. (WRG)
I was going to get Armies of the Dark Ages next but maybe it should be Middle Ages #1
Cheers

[ March 03, 2004, 00:33: Message edited by: Cremorn ]

[imported_adsarf]

The current 'Jacquerie' vartiant of the medieval French list (with a Kn general, and lots of crossbows as well as the peasant Wb) is one of the most bizarre there is. Even odder than the DBM army allowing the Jacques to be an ally to the regime they were revolting against. Rudy's variant is much more 'realistic'.

Double-ranked 7Wb should be an intimidating sight on the tabletop. I'm just not confident they will win many battles.

Andrew

[rudynelson]

I have had my copy since 1983 and do not regret the purchase. For purist I do not see a problem with changing the WB from 7 to 5 or changing 7 WB to 7 Hde but that change will not have much killing power.
I had thought about the Knt or even Cav General but the sources were adamant about the peasants killing any and every noble that they encountered. based on the rule concept that blades are better armed than other units , a person could possibly upgrade the Gen to a Blade but not a Knt or Cav.
In regards to crossbow, the sources state that french peasants would report to a levy muster with a knife and a bow (not crossbow). However I am not sure that there was enough bow or command coordination for them to be rated Bow.
No I do not see them winning to many same era battles but it is mainly a campaign option in my opinion.

[ March 31, 2004, 20:25: Message edited by: rudynelson ]

[Macbeth]

Originally posted by Cremorn:
... can you point me to any references for finding out any more about this?
... in English :)? ...
For a good overview of the history of this period you can't go past Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror". This covers the history of 14th Century Europe, centreing on France by following the life of one of the most powerful nobles of the period Enguerand DeCoucy. It cumulates with the Nicopolis Crusade, but covers the plauge, the early 100 years war, the Free Companies and the Papacy.

If you can get to Quid Pro Quon in May Cremorn, I'll happily lend you my copy.

[Macbeth]

Originally posted by adsarf:
The current 'Jacquerie' vartiant of the medieval French list (with a Kn general, and lots of crossbows as well as the peasant Wb) is one of the most bizarre there is. Even odder than the DBM army allowing the Jacques to be an ally to the regime they were revolting against. Rudy's variant is much more 'realistic'.
I'll have to go back through my sources, specifically Tuchman, but I think that there were several Peasant Revolts in 14th Century France, and in some cases parallel revolts in different parts of the country, some of which were supported by some minor nobles, so there might be occasions where the commander of the force was a knight, or the peasants were allied to nobles.

I'll get back to this when I get the time to re-read the books. At the moment I have two small children, a tournament (Quid Pro Quon) to get underway, a ludicrous number of unpainted figures, my country's 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guelder to frame for it. Frankly I'm swamped.

[Cremorn]

Here is a pocket history of the pastoureaux. I have lifted it from Druon, Maurice (1960) The She-Wolf of France. In good student order the words have been rearranged so as not to plagiarise except where in quotes. The book isn't actually about this period, but the one immediately after. I have taken this from the introduction.

THE PASTOUREAUX
During the reign of Philippe V (1316-22) "The Long", France was rocked by the uprising of the Pastoureaux. In the summer of 1317 France was ravaged by famine. Across large parts of the country, young people driven by poverty and starvation formed into bands of 'crusaders'.

In 1314 Philippe IV "The Fair" burned the Grand Master of the Templars at the stake, as part of a painstaking suppression of the order. The Templars continued by going underground, often disguised as clerics or tradesmen. In the winter of 1317 they transformed themselves into village religious, preaching a crusade to the holy land. Their real goal was to wreck the kingdom and ruin the papacy that had abandoned them.

The mobs were made up mostly of young tradesmen and apprentices, but every kind of societal outsider joined these bands of starving disaffected youth, at whose head was carried the cross. They moved in groups of thousands, soon turning to many tens ("hundreds"(?)) of thousands. Begging soon turned to pillage. They ravaged France for a whole year, plundering the churches and monasteries.

When the main mob assaulted Paris, they begged the King to lead them in their quest, as he tried to calm them from a palace window. They began to damage abbeys and public buildings, then strangely moved on towards the south, seemingly bound for Avignon and the Pope. At this point, looking for a victim the mob lit on the Jews as their frustration outlet and they were murdered in their thousands until the Pope and the King ordered their bishops and senechals to protect these leaders of commerce.

The Count of Foix, going to the aid of the the Senechal of Carcassonne "fought a pitched battle with the pastoureaux and drove them into the marches of Aigues-Mortes".

For the next two years bands still wandered about, ranging as far as Italy before they disappeared from history.

[ April 01, 2004, 19:05: Message edited by: Cremorn ]

[Macbeth]

I have picked up a couple of veiled references to an army of mixed Peasants and standard troops in Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror' - the first two in a chapter concerning the Jaquerie Revolt of 1358

"According to letters of pardon after the event, individual bourgeois - butchers, coopers, carters, sergeants, royal officers, priests and other clerics - made themselves accomplices of the Jaques, especially in the looting of property. Even men of the gentry appear in the pardons, but whether they were moved by belief, opportunity for loot, excitement, of force majeur is uncertain. Knights, squires, and clerks accused of having led peasant bands always claimed afterwards that they had been forced into service to save their necks, which may well have been true, for the Jaques felt painfully the lack of military leaders."

In describing the end of one of the most powerful bands led by Guilliame Cale

"Cale sensibly ordered his army of several thousands to fall back upon Paris for the support and aid of the city, but the Jaques, eager for a fight refused to obey. Cale then deployed them in the traditional three battalions, of which two, led by archers and crossbowmen, were stationed behind a line of baggage wagons. The third, of 600 horsemen poorly mounted and many without arms, was held in support."

In a chapter on the later peasant revolt in England (1381) with other risings in Europe.

"Southern France too was in turmoil, spread by bands of dispossessed peasants and vagabond poor. The Monk of St Denis called them the desesperes and creve-de-faim (the hopeless and starving), but locally they were called the Tuchins. Some say that the name derives from tue-chein (kill-dog) meaning people reduced to such misery that they ate dogs as in times of famine; others that it derived from touche, meaning, in the local patois, the maquis or brush where the dispossessed took refuge.

Through the uplands of Auvergne, as well as in the south, the Tuchins, in bands of 20, 60 or 100 organised a guerilla warfare against established society. They preyed upon the clergy - hated for their tax exemptions - ambushed travellers, held lords for ransom, attacking all, it was said, who did not have calloused hands. Like the Mafia of Sicily, they originated out of misery to prey upon the rich, but on becoming organised, were used by the rich in their local feuds and brigandage. Towns and seigeurs hired them in their war against the crowns officers, who were called 'eaters'. The unrest in Languedoc was to reach the force of insurrection in the following year."

So I think there is merit in the DBA army as published, but not its source - the DBM army where the Jaques are part of an allied contingent.

[Macbeth]

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I can now offer up another reference to the Jaquerie and Parisian Revolts.

Jonathan Sumption's 'Trial By Fire - The Hundred Years War II' (Part I was called 'Trial By Battle')

I've just reached the chapter where the Jaquerie revolt breaks out. His analysis of the formation, and the composition of the force is excellent.

I've been sitting on this book for a couple of years now and should have read it earlier when the thread was live.

All I can do now is recommend the book to you all.

Cheers

[Cremorn]

Macbeth,
I have the Sumption book part 1 but it's languishing on the shelf. Should I pick it up?

You really should know about Druon if you like Hundred Years War. I'll send you the first one in the mail, if you send me Tuchman.

I haven't been reading medieval for ages, but as a sidetrack I've just finished Zoe Oldenbourg's "The World is Not Enough" (novel) about the men and families of Champagne around the 3rd Crusade. It was a deep read, and affected my thinking about a lot of things.

Something I'm intending to track down is "A Fool and His Money: Life in a Partitioned Town in Fourteenth-Century France" by Ann Wroe. It's about Rodez - I think the place was half French/half English.

Thanks for the post about the Tuchins.
Pastoureaux, Jacques, Tuchins (desesperes et creve-de-faim)

[ June 23, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: Cremorn ]

[Macbeth]

Originally posted by Cremorn:
Macbeth,
I have the Sumption book part 1 but it's languishing on the shelf. Should I pick it up?
Most Definitely. I bought it more than 10 years ago as one of my 4 books at $4 each for a direct mail group called The Softback Preview which has sadly now been absorbed by Doubleday (higher prices lesser range). Sumption's only sin in Book 1 was to continually refer to the venerable race north of England as 'The Scotch'. I have forgiven him and he has corrected this in book 2.

Originally posted by Cremorn:

You really should know about Druon if you like Hundred Years War. I'll send you the first one in the mail, if you send me Tuchman.
I have read the full 5 book Accursed Kings series by Druon and indeed loved it.

Still happy to send you Tuchman private message me your snailmail address.

Originally posted by Cremorn:

I haven't been reading medieval for ages, but as a sidetrack I've just finished Zoe Oldenbourg's "The World is Not Enough" (novel) about the men and families of Champagne around the 3rd Crusade. It was a deep read, and affected my thinking about a lot of things.
Here is another great historian and author. I have read her history of the Crusades and of the Albigensian Crusade, along with a novel concerning a party of Flemish weavers that join Peter the Hermit's group in the First Crusade. Titles all elude me I'm afraid.

What struck me about her history of the Crusade was reading the French interpretation of the feud between Phillip Augustus and Richard the Lionheart. The first history books I read were the Ladybird Junior Histories when in grade 4. Richard I and Henry V got quite a good rap from those books which coloured my perceptions until my late teens.

Also if you get the chance to see the original 'Lion In Winter' with Peter O'Toole, Catharine Hepburn, Anthony Hopkins and Timothy Dalton watch it and enjoy. Don't go out of your way to see the remake (Glenn Close and Patrick Stewart).

My library is one more reason for you to try and make it across to Canberra for one of the Tourneys.

Cheers

[Cremorn]

For Richard I, the go is Alfred Duggan's Devil's Brood. Unlike his usual stuff it isn't a novel. It's patchy, but really analytic about personalities, motivations, etc. Richard comes off in a balanced way: yes, he was the personality of the age - but when the time came he died alone and unmissed. A bit on Geoffrey/Matilda to lead into Henry/Eleanor, but most of the book is about the sons, and includes a lot of great stuff about The Marshall.

Something else good is Philip Warner's Sieges of the Middle Ages. It's pretty dense, it's not a good introduction - but the second time through has made me refer back to it often. A good technical manual on siegecraft, but a brilliant short account of major campaigns esp. Billy the Conker. He has a good approach to history. Do you find it annoying when people say "and then he ate all the babies after slow-roasting them BUT you should'nt judge him by todays standards ... those were different times" If the work is written well and just lays out events the author should never have to apologise. He is really big on primary sources, so it's all his own work.

If you've read both of these I'll have to dig harder :)

[Macbeth]

I have read Duggan's "The Devil's Brood" and did enjoy it. After first viewing "Lion In Winter" I used it as a reference for 'What Happened to...' after the movie. It seems that now someone has recently pulished a novel 'The Lost Letters of Aquitaine' that deals with Princess Alice in her later life.

I have also read Phillip Warner's "Seiges of the Middle Ages", thanks for your tips, I will revisit it sometime soon.

The last history book as opposed to fiction was 'Byzantium and the Crusades' by Johnathan Harper which is a very good analysis of Byzantine foreign policy and how it eventually led to the sack of Constantinople in 1204.

[ June 24, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Macbeth ]