Ancient Chinese Flags, Standards, Banners, Pennants, etc.?

[gwrfelling]

Does anyone have information on the shapes, colors, calligraphy, designs, etc. of the flags used by specific Later Han Dynasty/Early Three Kingdoms leaders, their generals, or armies? The info that I've found is very incomplete.

If at all possible, please cite the sources of your information. Otherwise, well, please give me an impression of where you found the information.

Thank you.

[Jason Ehlers]

It's an interesting period. I wish I knew more about it, if I were looking for more help ask the people in the forum at:
http://www.3kingdoms.net/
good luck

[Darren Buxbaum]

I don't know much about that region or period either, but I do know there are some Osprey titles that have some of the Chinese armies, siege weapons and just recently released a book on Samurai heraldry in it's Warrior series. I don't own this one though so I don't have the exact details. But then again this could all be the wrong info (hopefully not). Lastly, Vini Vedi Vici makes some Samurai flag transfers for certain clans. Anyway it was worth a try.

Cheers,
Darren

[E_A_Lindberg]

I'd be a little wary of the Osprey books, particularly for calligraphy. Many of them are clearly written by people who don't read Chinese.

One of the biggest howlers is in the Medieval Chinese Armies book, which shows a soldier carrying a banner that is supposed to say "dai ming" (great brightness). Instead, it says "da peng" which is gibberish, but might plausibly be translated as "big buddy".

[ September 12, 2002, 09:52: Message edited by: E_A_Lindberg ]

[gwrfelling]

Originally posted by Jason Ehlers:
It's an interesting period. I wish I knew more about it, if I were looking for more help ask the people in the forum at:
http://www.3kingdoms.net/
good luckYes, I've done that, and also on the Sanguo-Online Community. No response yet from those, but I did get some direction on the DBA Yahoo! group.

[gwrfelling]

Originally posted by E_A_Lindberg:
[QB]I'd be a little wary of the Osprey books, particularly for calligraphy. Many of them are clearly written by people who don't read Chinese.QB]I've found the characters to form the names of Cao Cao, Liu Bei, and Sun Ce (a good start). I've also decided to use the characters in the back-matter of Ralph D. Sawyer's The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China, Westview Press, 1993. The characters that he features would be excellent for unit flags, especially those with a unit names, types, positions, and/or functions emblazoned on them.

[Aristonicus]

The Art of War says which emblems are for the flags of the various divisions (Vanguard, Rear, Left, Right etc) of the army (Black Tortoise, etc) and for the Centre Division (commanders' position) it is the 'Greater Bear Constellation'.

Does anyone know how this would be shown on a flag? White stars on a black background? The characters for that constellation? Has appearance the Greater Bear Constellation changed over the last 2,500 years?

Any ideas on this?

[K.H.Ranitzsch]

The shape of the Great Bear (AKA the Big Dipper) doesn't seem to have changed siginificantly. Medieval illustrations are quite recognizable. Chinese standards with the constellation are normally shown white with black stars. As these are usually B+W pictures, they could in real life have been other light colours (e.g.yellow) with dark stars.

Greetings
Karl Heinz

[gwrfelling]

Thank you for your responses. Yes, I was familiar with the characters in Sun Tzu and other works; however, I was very interested in specific flags utilized by specific generals. Most of that detail, I suppose, is lost to history, but we can make some very educated guesses...

[gwrfelling]

Here is the look on which I finally settled. I am very happy with it, and I think the line of spearmen best show off the effect I was wanting. Thanks again for all the input.
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armiesofthefanatici/MatthewGrippin/HanChinese/index.html

[ March 10, 2005, 14:38: Message edited by: gwrfelling ]