Vikings vs Franks, a problem ?

[Jerome]

Hi everyone

Suppose you have a viking army (type a, 11 bd, 1 Ps), and while you're quietly busy doing your viking things (pillage, slaughter, etc.) a group of nasty Carolingians Franks comes with obvious hostile intentions. (6 kn,4 sp,2 ps).

Now say it's not your day and you lose the terrain roll. the terrain is a hill in the center,a road, and 2 very small woods on each corners.

Now what would you do ? Any advices or tips ? condoleances ?

Summary :
Vikings : 11Bd, 1 Ps
Franks : 6 kn,4 sp,2 ps

http://jboulbes.free.fr/vikvsCar.JPG

Jerome

[Spanikopites]

Declare victory and sail home?

The good news is he is reckless he might attack with only his Kn hoping to flatten your Bd's . You then have numbers and maybe overlaps.

If he's cagey, he'll be agressive with his Sp and Ps and use his horse to cherry-pick isolated
Bd.

This game is the Frankish players to lose, not the Vikings to win.

-Sean (Feeder of Ravens, Accoster of Walruses)

[David Kuijt]

First: take the right side as your home edge. (i.e., put the road horizontal, far away from you).

Assuming you succeed in that, make a big line of blade (say 7 elements across) with psiloi support in the center and march forward to take the hill. You will reach the hill crest before the enemy Knights, although it will be close -- you move first, so on your third bound you will cross the hill crest since it is closer to you.

The plan is to fight his knights with hill advantage, and keep the psiloi support for the main place the enemy knights are. Put your general in the center of your line, so he will be on top of the hill.

You can garrison your camp with a blade in case the enemy tries to send some knights around to take your camp (and you have spare blades, after all).

If your opponent gets clever and tries to maneuver his knights to not hit you on the hill, you should make him use pips to move and do your best to press the attack against the enemy foot.

If he charges uphill and beats you, at least you had a fair chance. But if you get the map edge you want, you should have about a 50/50 chance of winning the battle.

If you get some other edge, the answer is easy enough -- make a huge line with your General in the center with psiloi support. March forward, aiming his knights for the center of your line. You might put one or two blade in reserve to try to kill breakthroughs at +3:+1. If you are adept at timing, you might try to form a Cannae by advancing your wings after the enemy Knights are properly aimed at your center. You could also wheel your wings in towards the center (leaving at least a 3-5 element group in the center, with reserves). Which you choose to do depends upon where the enemy spear are and what they are doing.

That, and roll sixes, and you should have no problems. ;)

[Pthomas]

Jerome,

With the Vikings on the attack they will get 3 moves to the Franks 2 (as they move first). Meaning that the slower Vikings can reach the center of the board at the same time as their opponents. The hill is slightly off center so the Vikings will definitely grab it, if they get their choice of board edges. At +5 vs +3 for knight the most likey outcome is the recoil of the knights (20 chances), followed by equal chances (6) of the knight or blade being destroyed.

A straight charge by the Franks could win the day (especially if they can attack where the Ps and the hill aren't). However, it is far from a certain affair.

The Franks will need to hold the Blade line's center with Ps and work each flank with Knights to have a good chance of victory. This way they have a good shot of getting some knights on blades without psi support. The Ps can't be at both ends of the battle line at the same time. The Ps skirmishers will have to hold the blades away from the spear as long as possible and then the spear will have to hold on their own. Danger for the Franks is it becomes a pip nightmare.

[Jerome]

did I mention that of course, I did not enter where I wanted ? :D

[APHooper]

Taking on the knights on the hilltop is the sporting thing to do, and it is conceivable that it might even work. But I would expect the Vikings to lose about 75% of the time. Even if you have a solidly supported line on the hill top, you are unlikely to double and destroy four of the knights before they can get four quick-kills against you.

If I were the Viking commander, facing probable disaster if I come out to fight, I'd jam a half-dozen blades into the wood at either corner on the first turn, and put the rest BEHIND the hill, close to the woods so that the troops there can emerge and flank attackers coming after the elements in the clear. Knights have no quick-kill capacity in bad going, and would fight the blades at +1 to +1, so your opponent would probably resign and refuse to play rather than pursue you into the woods. You will end up fighting him near the baseline, but remember, retreat is not an issue for your blades. Because the blades are so slow, getting a "wrap and trap" is unlikely unless the Frankish commander is a novice. I would try to hook a corner or front edge in front of a knight's retreat path with one of my elements from the woods, so that that the knight will strike a corner or your frontage and be destroyed by a recoil result.

But frankly (a-heh), matching a monotype blade army against an army with so many knights on a board with so little bad going is just not a very balanced game. If it were me, I'd try to get it over with quickly and see if we could play a better match afterwards. If you feel you must play this match, and want badly to win, I'd certainly recommend placing more terrain than is shown on this board.

Andy Hooper
Seattle

[John Meunier]

Originally posted by APHooper:
If I were the Viking commander, facing probable disaster if I come out to fight, I'd jam a half-dozen blades into the wood at either corner on the first turn, and put the rest BEHIND the hill,
Andy Hooper
Seattle If you were a Viking commander, sir, they'd have to put a pink tutu on you and call you "little missy." tongue.gif

Vikings hiding in woods -- cramming in as many as they could like a bunch of frat boys in a phone booth. What kind of men are these?

Bah! Die like men. That's the Viking way. :D

[Ed Dillon]

John Meunier, you have the gist of it, sir. I would be proud to stand beside in battle, fighting those those girly-men horsie-boys.

Jerome, don't forget to recite the Viking battle prayer from "The Thirteenth Warrior".

[Shturmovik]

Jerome, I'm doing my best to make your demise as quick and painless as possible! :)

/Snebjørn

[Dunctator]

Posted by John Meunier Vikings hiding in woods -- cramming in as many as they could like a bunch of frat boys in a phone booth. What kind of men are these?

By Thor's hammer that's the spirit! Come out into the open and frighten the horses: beards versus ponies is always a good matchup!

Dunctator

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by John Meunier:
If you were a Viking commander, sir, they'd have to put a pink tutu on you and call you "little missy." tongue.gif
Luckily, most Viking raiding parties have a pink tutu in reserve for just this sort of gentle remonstrance of their commanders.

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Meunier:
If you were a Viking commander, sir, they'd have to put a pink tutu on you and call you "little missy." tongue.gif
Luckily, most Viking raiding parties have a pink tutu in reserve for just this sort of gentle remonstrance of their commanders. </font>[/QUOTE]Another little known historical fact.

[Timurilank]

DK wrote: Luckily, most Viking raiding parties have a pink tutu in reserve for just this sort of gentle remonstrance of their commanders. Hold on. Are we not forgetting the fact that the clothing articles originated from the fashion houses of Paris? This has the makings of a great camp. A runway with berserkers in the pink! :eek:

cheers,

[Timurilank]

Jerome wrote: Now say it's not your day and you lose the terrain roll. the terrain is a hill in the center,a road, and 2 very small woods on each corners.

Now what would you do ? Any advices or tips ? condoleances ? Jerome,

Seriously, if I were confronted with a similar situation, I would welcome the opportunity to offer the crows a banquet!

Knights against Vikings in the open is not for the boneless. One nice possiblilty, the Carolingian player may be over confident that he will lead an attack with his spear backed by ps hoping to tie up your first line and then take you in the flank with his Knights. You only need four elements to win so spear and ps will do nicely. Do keep a small reserve behind the first to follow up or plug holes as DK mentioned.

For the rest, just don't give up.

good luck!

[Dunctator]

Hold on. Are we not forgetting the fact that the clothing articles originated from the fashion houses of Paris? This has the makings of a great camp. A runway with berserkers in the pink! In other words a camp camp.

Dunctator ;)

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
Luckily, most Viking raiding parties have a pink tutu in reserve for just this sort of gentle remonstrance of their commanders. Originally posted by Pthomas:
Another little known historical fact. Much academic debate in the historical Medievalist community is focused upon the origins of this custom, and whether the traditional pink underwear of the Byzantine Emperors was an example of cultural transferrence from the Varangians (the "Harald Hardrada was a Poofta" school), or brought much earlier through the Goths or other migration-period Germanic cultures (the "Sigurd's Tutu" school), or is simply an example of parallel cultural evolution (the "Poofta Synchronicity" school).

Very few adherents follow a variety of third party or "external influence" theories, the most interesting (and unlikely) of which is the "Atilla's Drawers" theory, about which the less said the better.

[El' Jocko]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
Very few adherents follow a variety of third party or "external influence" theories, the most interesting (and unlikely) of which is the "Atilla's Drawers" theory, about which the less said the better. You must be speaking of Attila's Hunderwear. But you're right, the less said the better.

- Jack

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by El' Jocko:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by David Kuijt:
Very few adherents follow a variety of third party or "external influence" theories, the most interesting (and unlikely) of which is the "Atilla's Drawers" theory, about which the less said the better. You must be speaking of Attila's Hunderwear. But you're right, the less said the better.

- Jack </font>[/QUOTE]I am weeping with joy that these little known, but historically significant, theories should once more come out of the closet of discarded ideas.

Thank you gentlemen for a very good laugh.

[Ed Dillon]

Originally posted by Shturmovik:
Jerome, I'm doing my best to make your demise as quick and painless as possible! :)

/Snebjørn How is it that we have the guy from France playing the Vikings and the guy from Denmark playing the Carolingians, cultural exchange?
smile.gif

[Andrechin]

Originally posted by Timurilank:

For the rest, just don't give up.

good luck! If it may be of some help I was told that at a tournement a guy with a pair of Cv dismountable to Bd was facing a pair on Kn.

He dismounted, Kn charged, 1-6, 1-5, no more Kn.

(there was a logic in dismounting, at 4 vs. 3 Cv cannot destroy Kn, but at 3 vs. 3 Bd can, and probably the time limit was approaching, so the player wanted to reach a conclusion very quickly)

Attilio

[Shturmovik]

Originally posted by Ed Dillon:
How is it that we have the guy from France playing the Vikings and the guy from Denmark playing the Carolingians, cultural exchange?
smile.gif Yeah, let's call it that - as long as I get to play the Carolingians in this match-up! :D

/Snebjørn

[Dunctator]

Originally posted by David Kuijt Much academic debate in the historical Medievalist community is focused upon the origins of this custom There is, of course, a school of thought that the Vikings initial impetus for raiding was that thongs were in short supply in 8th century Scandinavia (see Bendover & Squeek, Things and Thongs : Viking Regional Assemblies and Raiding Apparel 789-1066).

Dunctator

[John Meunier]

Originally posted by Andrechin:
[(there was a logic in dismounting, at 4 vs. 3 Cv cannot destroy Kn, but at 3 vs. 3 Bd can,

Attilio Wow. Good thing the Cv commander knew the combat odds. I seem to recall a passage in Livy about a Roman centurion pointing out to his consul that the hastati should charge the Gauls in the woods because the Gauls would be at a disadvantage.

To which, the consul replied that the rules had been revised and that Gauls no longer suffered a penalty for fighting in bad going.

[ October 21, 2005, 09:43: Message edited by: John Meunier ]

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by Dunctator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by David Kuijt Much academic debate in the historical Medievalist community is focused upon the origins of this custom There is, of course, a school of thought that the Vikings initial impetus for raiding was that thongs were in short supply in 8th century Scandinavia (see Bendover & Squeek, Things and Thongs : Viking Regional Assemblies and Raiding Apparel 789-1066).

Dunctator </font>[/QUOTE]BRILLIANT book! I highly recommend it. Especially the chapters on seasonally appropriate raiding apparel, thoroughly fascinating, extremely well researched.

[Ed Dillon]

Originally posted by Pthomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dunctator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by David Kuijt Much academic debate in the historical Medievalist community is focused upon the origins of this custom There is, of course, a school of thought that the Vikings initial impetus for raiding was that thongs were in short supply in 8th century Scandinavia (see Bendover & Squeek, Things and Thongs : Viking Regional Assemblies and Raiding Apparel 789-1066).

Dunctator </font>[/QUOTE]BRILLIANT book! I highly recommend it. Especially the chapters on seasonally appropriate raiding apparel, thoroughly fascinating, extremely well researched. </font>[/QUOTE]All of this goes some way to explain why so many of the Viking figs from Foundry are buck naked. I consulted some Norwegians on this phenomenon and they pointed out that Vikings were NOT "medieval porn stars"... I have no idea of that implies that they had "bit parts" or not...
On the other hand, knowing how wicked mosquitoes can be in the North Country, they must have been mighty stalwart sorts.

[Kvenulf]

quote:
You must be speaking of Attila's Hunderwear. But you're right, the less said the better.

- Jack

Actually, I have a pair of "Hunderoos"; they're very comfortable, get me in the mood to ravage countrysides, and make me feel sexy...
Oops!