Anticipating the Recoil

[Timurilank]

I have followed the discussion about recoiling and destroyed elements and thought how nice it would be to read how the veterans handle that kind of situation. We all have had a flank turned in our gaming experience, however, the better gamers have taken steps to minimize or cover their flanks. What are you doing to anticipate or minimize this kind of situation?

cheers,

[John Meunier]

The better players I've lost to tend to put me into so much hurt that I can't find the pips to threaten their flanks.

They also seal up any flank that they don't want to spend pips protecting. You have to get to a flank to turn it.

[SteveW]

Although not a veteran by any means, I can see a couple of potential steps to minimize or cover the flank.

Refuse the last element on a flank, so that its BWD covers the open flank of another unit. This probably merely delays things though.

Place a Horde (a good probability of it being killed anyway due to its low combat factors) as the flank element or

Place a 4Bd or 4Sp (no support). A 4Wb could also be used in desperation. Their depth is 15mm (in 15mm), and when they turn to face, there is a gap of 25mm behind them, more than enough space to recoil once. Depending on the anticipated threat, the 4Bd or 4Sp are probably the best two options. With a preferably fast moving element hovering around the flank there is the possibility of the enemy element making the flank attack being hit in front (by the element it attacked) and flank, by the element hovering. The enemy element then only needs to be beaten to be destroyed, as it is unable to recoil due to the flank attack.

Final comment; nice in theory, but on the battlefield .....

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by John Meunier:
The better players I've lost to tend to put me into so much hurt that I can't find the pips to threaten their flanks.As John says exactly! Each player has one weak flank (usually); the best way to protect your weak flank is by heartless and cruel pip domination. I don't mean "roll higher", although I certainly think that's great if you can do it -- I mean move so that you use your pips more effectively than your enemy, and so that your enemy has to use more pips to respond to a threat than you did to make the threat. The glory of DBA is the pip system -- it puts you in the position to have to make terrible choices (do I spend these pips to shore up the sagging left flank, or to move forward the lagging right flank?). The more terrible choices you can force your opponent into making, the more certain your victory.

This naturally entails other aspects of strategy. Knowing the speed of your army (not the speed of the elements -- that's easy. The speed of the formations you are in, and the speed with which you can reach the formations you want to be in through the terrain you must pass to get there) is one such aspect. Surprising the enemy is crucial -- the more he is guessing about your plan, the more pips he will waste on moves that do not require an answer. Concentration of force (and concentration of pips, in Big Battle) will put you in a position where the foe must dance to avoid dominance, and dancing is expensive and usually leaves you in a situation where you can advance further into a threatening attack on the next bound for very few pips, and the foe must use twice as many pips again to avoid disaster for another bound.



They also seal up any flank that they don't want to spend pips protecting. You have to get to a flank to turn it. I'm not sure what you mean by "seal up", John. But I (and DS, and Mark P, and Roland, and Marty, and other good players) do a number of things that make it difficult to reach and kill a flank. Refusing one flank, for example (leaving it back from the main battle line). There are lots of ways of creating a good static formation with a few elements on one flank that can hold for a fairly long time. The main issue is being able to press the attack hard enough in the center or on the other flank that you win the battle there, before you lose it on the refused flank.

[Pthomas]

I think there are at least 3 flank issues that you need to be aware of in a regular DBA game.

These are:

1) Security of the Refused flank
2) Speed and Manuever on the Attacking flank
3) Internal Flanks

1) Security of the refused flank. On this flank you are probably giving up the flank to your enemy, either because you have concentrated your forces elsewhere or you want to draw him/her forward by dangling a flank before his army. This generally means that this flank will not move forward as far or as fast as the rest of the army. This requires the opponent to spend more pips and more bounds (time and money) to reach the flank. So you secure it by making it difficult to get to in distance or because it is anchored on a piece of terrain that slows the enemy, causes him/her to spend more pips to move through (or around) the terrain, or because you have echeloned back the refused wing to make contact and turning of the flank a long and difficult process.

2)Speed and Manuever on the attacking flank. The means of protection on your attacking flank is offense, not defense. You use speed and power to take the initiative from your enemy and give him no opportunity to threaten your flank because you are busy threatening his flank. You may also cause your opponent to burn pips your enemy would prefer to use attacking your refused flank. This is a double benefit to guarding your flanks.

3) Internal flanks: These are the spaces between elements and wings and also spaces that appear when an element is destroyed and a gap apppears in your battle line. These flanks are covered by your reserve force (usually, but not always your general element). Of course, we always keep one or two elements in reserve in case of misfortune, correct?! smile.gif BTW, this reserve is normally in the center for a couple of reasons. a) your general should be centrally located and b) your refused flank will have little or no reserve, because it is already short of troops and your attacking wing needs no reserve because you have manuevered and achieved a local superority of forces.

[ March 29, 2005, 18:26: Message edited by: Pthomas ]

[Timurilank]

SteveW wrote

Place a 4Bd or 4Sp (no support). A 4Wb could also be used in desperation. Their depth is 15mm (in 15mm), and when they turn to face, there is a gap of 25mm behind them, more than enough space to recoil once. Depending on the anticipated threat, the 4Bd or 4Sp are probably the best two options. With a preferably fast moving element hovering around the flank there is the possibility of the enemy element making the flank attack being hit in front (by the element it attacked) and flank, by the element hovering. I read elsewhere, placing either element at an angle away from the approaching enemy will force them to add distance to their turning maneuver. Also the fast moving element, if you are referring to LH, should have ample room to allow for a fleeing move.

cheers,

[Timurilank]

Interesting points made by David Kuijt and Ptomas about speed :

This naturally entails other aspects of strategy. Knowing the speed of your army (not the speed of the elements -- that's easy. The speed of the formations you are in, and the speed with which you can reach the formations you want to be in through the terrain you must pass to get there) is one such aspect.
(further)
You use speed and power to take the initiative from your enemy and give him no opportunity to threaten your flank because you are busy threatening his flank. On a general note, how many elements across are your assault formations? What you are describing requires more elements behind to feed the first line and this is most likely not a part of the army reserve. I imagine any assault line longer than three elements would lose time wheeling, so if your opponent is assaulting with more than five elements wide do you smile and offering him a drink?

cheers,

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by Timurilank:
[QUOTE] On a general note, how many elements across are your assault formations? What you are describing requires more elements behind to feed the first line and this is most likely not a part of the army reserve. I imagine any assault line longer than three elements would lose time wheeling, so if your opponent is assaulting with more than five elements wide do you smile and offering him a drink?

cheers, Robert,

Generally, your attacking wing will have a battle line to engage and pin the targeted part of the opponent's army (this will generally be 2-4 elements), but the attack will also consist of an attacking column that will sweep past his line and turn the flank or threaten the rear. This 'so called column' could be as few as a single element and probably not more then 3, but once his/her flank is compromised your opponent is reacting to you. The numbers are all relative, but you should strive for both numerical (number of elements, but also quality of elements v those available to your enemy) and manuevering superiority (speed and power). The more of both you can achieve the better your chances of victory.

The reverse side of the coin on your refused wing you are attempting to spend as few (or no) pips as possible while forcing your opponent to spend as many as possible. So tactics like wheeling forward to force his outside attackers to go further. Anchoring on a bad going or impassable terrain feature (which you've planned for at deployment). Pushing your wing out laterally to force his attack wider. Echelon back tactics, withdrawing tactics, and sacrificing tactics are all viable options individually and collectively for delaying and thwarting an attack.

Also, keep in mind that an overly aggressive player can sometimes be defeated with a planned counterattack strategy, where your central reserve is actually designed to attack your opponent's opened flank if his/her attack is too aggressive on your refused wing. This works especially well against impetuous troops, that can be drawn forward into ambush.

[Timurilank]

Pthomas wrote:
Generally, your attacking wing will have a battle line to engage and pin the targeted part of the opponent's army (this will generally be 2-4 elements), but the attack will also consist of an attacking column that will sweep past his line and turn the flank or threaten the rear. This 'so called column' could be as few as a single element and probably not more then 3, but once his/her flank is compromised your opponent is reacting to you. Good advice. I found that the column you refer to is best formed with mounted troops; however, fielding a predominantly infantry army (Marians) even a column of Bd can set your opponent dancing in anticipation. The deployment of the attacking column to an assault line is the greatest problem for most. Inexperienced players play for the short term goal and not develop their overall plan. It is a hard decision to use pips to orchestrate a well timed assault than to continue or follow up local combats elsewhere.

We played a new round in our Gallic Campaign last night. The Romans fought the Helvetians to a standstill, but the most interesting conflict was an internal power struggle between the Averni and Aedui. These were two equally matched armies; he with all the cavalry and general on his left flank facing my six elements of warband and the other half of my army facing his remaining nine elements. Moving all his cavalry in an encircling movement, I moved my line slowly forward while the 6 warband wheeled facing his cavalry. With a good pips roll I double moved the warband contacting the two cavalry elements behind the General. Warband versus Cavalry is insane, but this was an opportunity to close off the General from the rest of his army. He was down three elements to my two and with the majority of his army still stand I proceeded to develop a death blow to his exposed right flank. It was very tense as I had marched a reserve to a hill on his right flank ready to roll his army up. It was then my luck took a tea break and I lost two elements. I actually did not mind the loss, as I had won a game earlier in the evening, however, there was much that he learned from the experience especially the timing of a flank attack preempting a pinning attack and secondly the proximity of the General to exert contro.

cheers,

[Timurilank]

Pthomas wrote:
Also, keep in mind that an overly aggressive player can sometimes be defeated with a planned counterattack strategy, where your central reserve is actually designed to attack your opponent's opened flank if his/her attack is too aggressive on your refused wing. This works especially well against impetuous troops, that can be drawn forward into ambush. What then is your ideal combination of troops? 3-4 elements of mounted, 4-6 heavy and 2-4 light troops?

cheers,

[Pthomas]

Robert,

Yes, exactly. It is why I like successor armies so well. I look for about 1/3 mounted, 1/3 heavy foot, and 1/3 bad going troops.