A little help with Vikings

[Churchill]

Hiya all,

I have been dabbling recently with DBA using a HYW English army and have decided it isn't really for me.

I have a ton of old Viking miniatures that I got recently so I am going to use those as my new army.

What I was wondering was if people could help out a newbie decide what is the best configuration of the army (III/40).

This is what I was thinking ...

III/40d: Leidang 1070-1280 Ag 1 Littoral

1x 3Kn (Gen)
6x 4Bd
2x 3Ax
2x 2Ps
1x 4Sp

I would anchor the line at one end with the Sp and the Ax at the other in bad going. The Psiloi would depoly in front to break up any charges before retreating behind my Bd and provide support. The General would be used to plug gaps.

Another option would be to take the max of 8 Bd and land 3 of them, with an element of Ps via the Littoral Landing rules.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Chris.

[Chris Brantley]

Couple of thoughts.

The Psiloi can provide rear support to both your Leidang Spear and Auxila, as well as your Blades against mounted, so you might want to keep them in proximity against foes with horse, esp. Knights.

Psiloi skirmishing in front of your Blades is dangerous against some opponents. Any mounted (i.e. Kn and Cv) that are likely to threaten Blades (so that they would benefit from rear support) is also likely to kill your Psiloi outright. The exception would be Warband, where their impetuous movement after recoiling Psiloi may draw them into your Blades with exposed flanks. For most other match-ups where rear support is not an option, your Psiloi would do better helping extend your line and proving overlaps on the flanks.

A single element of Knights as your general can be dangerous. Having my Early Burgundian Kn(Gen) charge impetously ahead into flank overlaps with no friendly support is what killed me in my last game. I killed the spear I hit, but then was cut off and lost my CnC the next bound. In a Leidang army, I'd tend to hold the Kn(Gen) back as a counterpunching force.

The Littoral option gives this army an interesting edge. Depending on the battlefield terrain, your bad going troops may make the best landing force. Imagine landing them with some bad going protection between you and the enemy that would both protect your landing and give you a safe approach to the enemy's flank.

Bottom line, I would try to adapt my deployment to each opponent and terrain set-up, in order to find the best match-ups for my Leidang Blades and bad going troops. Your proposed set-up sounds reasonable, but it is hard to assess without knowing how the enemy is set up.

[Darren Buxbaum]

Chris,
interesting post. I will try to see if I can be of any help.

III/40d Leidang 1070-1280AD
Littoral. Ag: 1
1x3Kn (Gen), 8x4Bd or 3Ax, 2x2Ps or 3Bw, 1x4Sp or 7Hd

This army is mostly composed of Bd which is superior to most infantry and it's nemesis is Wb and Kn. I don't know if your are mostly interested in tournaments or historical opponents. The good variety of historical enemies of the Leidang list provides a great deal of challenging adversaries that you could meet at a tournament. This could be a could testing ground for your final selections of optional troops.

Slav (Wend)
Same aggression, couple of Cv and a possible Kn, mostly Ax and possibly a few Bw. The Wends basic threat is a littoral landing (which is moot due to your littoral status). His Kn is the only possible threat.

Viking
High aggression, lots of Bd and possible Wb. Good match, but Leidang can have the upper hand due to low aggression and Kn. The Hd would be useful to anchor the line since it doesn't recoil.

Leidang
Your mirror image, the Kn is your only major threat.

Eastern Frankish
This is your nightmare. A possible 12Kn army. If your opponent choses the Sp, this is his weak spot. Place most of your Bd in Bg to protect it from a mounted attack. Ax is of no use here and the Ps selection is better than the Bw since they can support 6 of your Bd vs mounted (if in the open). Bw isn't a bad thing to have. If Bw is selected, then use it with your Kn to goad an attack (don't charge into them though or you will lose the Bw QK on their Kn). One good thing is that the E Franks have a high aggression and you will most likely place the terrain.

Medieval Germans a&b
Both of these armies are good combined arms lists. The main threat is their 4-5 Kn. Their Sp option is their best infantry against you and will result in a scrum. The Bw option could be of some use here vs his Kn or one Cb. Ax could be useful not only BG, but also killing his Ps and flanking.

Estonian
High aggression, lots of Wb (10). Your Ps would be of good use here as well as Ax.

Prussian
Low aggression, lots of Wb possible. Again, Ps and Ax are good choices.

Using these match ups, this is what I would choose:
1x3Kn (Gen), 6x4Bd, 2x3Ax, 2x2Ps, 1x7Hd

It is basically what you were going for except for the Hd. The Sp would be the weakest heavy infantry that you would posess vs other heavy infantry armies (Viking and Leidang). The best place for the Sp would be in the camp. The Hd is a better anchor for your line since it doesn't recoil (it is impetuous though and requires 2 PIPs to move). The Ax as mentioned before will speed up your flanks and challenge Wb. In Wb heavy armies, they will have to sacrifice frontage for depth bonuses against your Bd. This makes them easier to flank or peel off the back ranks with the Ax. Placing Ax in between Bd can be useful against El in tournaments. Ps vs Bw? I would go for the Ps since it supports the Bd vs mounted and Wb. Kn heavy armies will always be the Leidang army's bane. You will always have to use some BG to protect your Bd from enemy Kn. Conversely, always use your general Kn to it's potential. Use him to punch a hole into those Bd and Wb armies (and select very little terrian).

Lastly, I would paint up the two Bw and Bd just in case I'm way off.

[ October 22, 2004, 01:04: Message edited by: Darren Buxbaum ]

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by Churchill:
Hiya all,

I have been dabbling recently with DBA using a HYW English army and have decided it isn't really for me.

I have a ton of old Viking miniatures that I got recently so I am going to use those as my new army.

What I was wondering was if people could help out a newbie decide what is the best configuration of the army (III/40).

This is what I was thinking ...

III/40d: Leidang 1070-1280 Ag 1 Littoral

1x 3Kn (Gen)
6x 4Bd
2x 3Ax
2x 2Ps
1x 4Sp

The HYW English are a tough army against almost any opposition, but they can be tricky until you get the hang of them. Leidang are certainly going to be easier to use.

The Kn general is a bit of a problem. Kn generals have a nasty habit of vanishing into the depths of the enemy army, getting double-overlapped and losing you the game. In a recent game my Kn general nearly chased an enemy Cav off the board - it did me no good and would have been a big risk if my opponent had rolled better pips. Don't let him touch anything he doesn't QK.

You need have no fear of Warband. With the Ps support in good going, and a couple of auxilia for Bgo, you will only lose to warband when the dice are so badly against you that you could have lost to Psiloi.

Knights are a real threat, and the Psiloi support helps, but you will still be insecure against Kn-heavy armies.

Mobility is also very low with an army like this. You will struggle against LH or Cav if they can find your flanks - they will be able to break up your line and fight with advantage and you will have difficulty moving up reserves (other than your weak auxilia and that powerful but fragile Kn general). Low aggression and careful terrain placement will help here.

So I'd say this is a good army to dabble with - tough, slow, direct and brutal - but if you get past the dabbling stage, consider going back to the English.

Good luck!

Andrew

[imported_Bryanmd]

Hey, while we are on the subject of Vikings....

I am about to finally crank out a DBA Viking army. Norse types. Any painting tips? I have been adrift in a sea of saffrons, drabs and butternuts with all my Prefeudal Scots and Irish guys. I would think the Vikings had more flamboyant coloring.

And just for kicks, what would one do for the Leideng army that would be different painting-wise?

Thanks,
Bryan

[Aethelfrith]

Ah, the Northmen... My first army!
I use mostly reds, greens and yellows. Yes, more flamboyant coloring is, I feel, a must. I also tend to stick with the shield pattern that divides the shield into quarters on the standard round shield.

Nate

"Ad Furor Normannorum Liberate Nos Domine(But Kn or Wb in Bad Going don't have to worry too much)" smile.gif

[ October 22, 2004, 13:56: Message edited by: Aethelfrith ]

[imported_Bryanmd]

"Ad Furor Normannorum Liberate Nos Domine(But Kn or Wb in Bad Going don't have to worry too much)"

Thanks, and you'll be delivered from their fury after the ABBA concert....

bryan

[Aethelfrith]

Yeah, I know. I suggest blackwashing-my first Viking army is still getting referred to at games as "those bloody technicolor vikings" smile.gif

Nate

[Chris Brantley]

Leidang are the Scandinavians who stayed home, in contrast to those who raided abroad (Vikings), so clothing/color wise should be just about the same. Possibly not quite as well armed/equipped since the rank and file included a higher proportion of levied farmers without as much access to plundered armor and weapons as their more adventurous countrymen abroad.

[ October 22, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: Chris Brantley ]

[Chris Brantley]

For the history buffs, here is a description of the Leidang military system from one of the on-line encyclopedias:

The institution known as leiðangr (Old Norse), leidang/leding (Norwegian), leding, (Danish), ledung (Swedish), expeditio (Latin) or sometimes lething (in English language), was a public fleet levy of free farmers typical for the Scandinavian Vikings. The leiðangr was however established more than a century before the beginning of the Viking Age.

In all the three Scandinavian countries leiðangr evolved to a tax, paid by all (free) farmers until the 19th century. As the clergy and the noble estate were exempted from this tax burden, the tax came to facilitate the Church's and the noble manor's acquisition of land. In the end the states became increasingly dependent on the nobility for defence and warfare.

The leiðangr was a system organising a coastal fleet with the aim of defence, coerced trade, plunderings and aggressive wars. Normally, the fleet levy was on expeditions for two or three summer months. All free men, i.e. the peasants, were obliged to take part in or contribute to the leiðangr. All of the leiðangr was called to arms when invading forces threatened the land. In the expeditions only a faction of the ships were taking part, but as the expeditions often were profitable many magnates and chieftains tried to join with their people as often as possible. In the 11th century the leiðangr was very successful. Sections of the Danish and Norwegian leiðangr conquered Western England under Canute the Great, mainly a re-conquest of the Danelaw.

The lands were divided into districts, ship's crews, "skipreiða" (Old Norse), "skipæn" (Danish) or "roslag" (Swedish). The farmers of the district had to build and equip a rowed sailing ship. The size of the ships was defined as a standardized number of oars. In Norway, there were 279 such districts in 1277, in Denmark two-three times as many. The head of a district was called "styrimaðr" or "styræsmand", steersman, and he functioned as captain of the ship. The smallest unit was the crew of peasants who had to arm and provide for one oarsman ("hafnæ" in Danish, "manngerð" in Old Norse).

The weapons the ships would carry were typically: bows, spears, swords, battle- axes and shields. In the 11th century, jarls are mentioned as the chieftain of the leiðangr, in the 12th century the bishop was head of the fleet levy.

[ October 22, 2004, 17:12: Message edited by: Chris Brantley ]

[Churchill]

Hiya all,

Thanks for all the help.

I got my army assembled on the weekend (I paint after they are put together). I also put together a General on foot and a Warband so I can do the earlier list.

I have my first game coming up with them in a few weeks ... only bummer is that it is against Med French. Oh well smile.gif

Cheers, Chris.

[imported_Bryanmd]

Originally posted by Churchill:
Hiya all,


I have my first game coming up with them in a few weeks ... only bummer is that it is against Med French. Oh well smile.gif

Cheers, Chris. Line your Vikings up and crush the French with the dice. Don't worry, I will paint more if you lose.
Bryan

[John Meunier]

Trees. Steep hills. Rivers.

Break up his knight line and gang up best you can.

If he dismounts -- even fight.

[imported_Bryanmd]

Originally posted by John Meunier:
Trees. Steep hills. Rivers.

Break up his knight line and gang up best you can.

If he dismounts -- even fight. AND
Always be Littoral.
Give the French a lot to think about.
(with your aggression factor, roll loooowwwwwwww.)

[whefam]

I have loads of vikings..mainly blade...therefore what about tactics for the earlier vikings (about 800Ad). Tey compise of 11 BD and 1 WB (I think?).

Opponents could be carolingians, old saxons, or later ostrogoths....

Regards

Andy

[Chris Brantley]

Not much in terms of subtle tactics for the Vikings. They are Blade heavy, move slow without much in the way of quick-kill chances. But they are sturdy against most historical opponents.

Against an opponent with lots of spear, take your Berserker (Wb) option. Against an opponent with mounted, take Psiloi (for rear support of your Blade General) or Bow.

The general rule of thumb is stay away from Bad Going. But don't forget Blade can fight Auxilia in bad going even up (+3 vs. +3) although Aux has the edge in mobility.

Don't bother chasing Psiloi into Bad Going with Blade, your best result without closing the door on a flank is a flee.

Do put your Blade in Bad Going if/when facing lots of Knights. You're both down to +1, and only the Knights face a quick-kill if recoiled. Talk about bloody.

Stay away from double-ranked Warband, especially with overlap support.

The best overall tactic is straight ahead, engage quick and hard, and roll good combat die. At +5, if you roll enough, you'll eventually start killing Spear, Auxilia, Warband, etc. Once you kill something, then you'll increase your odds with flanks and overlaps.

Since Blade are so slow, a formation with a lot of depth isn't going to help you much with this army, since reserves will have a hard time getting up in time to be helpful. Better to spread out your line, IMO, in order to try to overlap an enemy flank and/or prevent the enemy from falling on your flank or making a run for your camp.

Numbers tell in DBA. Try fighting your Vikings in two groups...one smaller and refused (the Hold Command) and the other larger and more aggressive (Thor's Hammer). The goal is to get the larger group isolated and unnumbering a portion of the enemy line, while the small group keeps the rest of the enemy occupied.

The one Viking trick is their Littoral landing option. If the enemy is not expecting it, or deploys poorly, it can be devastating. If executed poorly, however, it could isolate the four elements that will lose you the battle, since it will take a long time for the rest of the army to come up in support. Instead of landing in the rear of the enemy, try to land where you can threaten their flank, and force that part of the enemy line into an L shaped corner, with both legs engaged. With decent die and a little luck, you'll be able to kill them with recoils if you can put pressure at the conjunction of the two lines.

Second and subsequent movement on a road is one way to move a slow army quickly. Although the odds are the Viking will lose the terrain roll (with a 4 aggression), when you do place terrain, consider the use of roads.

And last but not least, remember it is pretty hard for most elements to kill +5 foot, so don't be afraid to stick your nose in.

[whefam]

Thanks Chris for taking the time and trouble giving your extensive advice.

It is much appreciated.

I have played DBA in the past (1.0 mainly and 2.0) and I have re-visited this site when I got my enthusasiam back for it.

I have found all considerate, kind and very helpful.

Bob Beattie, DK, yourself and others have been patient and generous with advice.

thanks again.

Excellent forum BTW.

Regards

andy smile.gif