Teleporter Camps!

[imported_S.Kirby]

During my first game of DBA we have come across a questionable use of Camps to get extra movement. The rules state that if an element moves into its camp, then any camp followers are displaced and destroyed. If the camp is garrisoned by another type of element, then they are recoiled out of the camp, to be replaced by the one that moved into it. The general then moves more units into the camp, forcing the other element to recoil out. In other words, the elements get free movement across the camp like a teleporter. The enemy cannot follow since they must attack the camp when in contact. Is this legal?

[Chris Brantley]

Not sure that the rules envison this specific situation, but my own thought is that when a non-camp follower element garrisoning a camp is displaced by another element (i.e. forced to "recoil")...the displaced element would retire off the rear board edge instead of recoiling forward. The element would therefore count as lost for purposes of victory conditions. That would certainly eliminate any incentive to "teleport" elements through the camp.

Does that make sense?

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by S.Kirby:
The rules state that if an element moves into its camp [...]. If the camp is garrisoned by another type of element, then they are recoiled out of the camp, to be replaced by the one that moved into it.
Incorrect. P11, fourth paragraph from the bottom (starting "A recoiling element moves..."). Fourth sentence: "A recoiling element [....] that meets [....] a troop-garrisoned friendly BUA or camp [....] is destroyed."

In other words, the first element to recoil into a camp drives out the camp followers and replaces them. Any other element that is now recoiled into the newly troop-garrisoned camp is destroyed.

So there is no "teleportation" going on.

[cpagano]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
...Any other element that is now recoiled into the newly troop-garrisoned ... What if they move in voluntarily?

Either way, this sort of situation seems exceedingly rare.

[imported_S.Kirby]

Hmm. The troops did move voluntarily into the camp (not recoiled into).

The reason for this movement was that movement by the elements in any other direction would have put the units into an enemies ZOC. So the movement through the camp was preferable. Another point to make clear the situation is that the elements moved through the side of the camp, not through the front, so the recoil direction was taken as through the other side.

I think Chris' suggestion would make more sense.

As far as rarity, this then happened in another battle later, where the enemy moved through his camp to avoid coming into range of my Art in a BUA.

[ May 15, 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: S.Kirby ]

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by S.Kirby:
Hmm. The troops did move voluntarily into the camp (not recoiled into).Can't. You can only move into an unoccupied camp, or one that has only camp followers in it. Page 7, paragraph 3. There is no rule allowing you to move into a friendly camp that is troop-garrisoned.

[imported_S.Kirby]

I thought Legal documents were hard to understand and follow. Having a hard time understanding some of the rules in DBA rulebook!

Page 7 para 3. "A camp can be occupied by 1 only of your troop elements, which can vacate it or be replaced by another such element..."

Further sentences do state that undefended or camps with destroyed/surrender/vacated defenders can be occupied. Accepted. But there is no direct statement regarding the situation here. Do we take this as being the only situation acceptable?

Sorry to appear argumentative, but I really am trying to understand these rules properly. I'm also having some problems understanding the alignment of troops when attacked in close combat from an angle. Who re-aligns to create the correct positioning? But that is for another post!

[David Crowell]

I think the intent is that the element in the camp moves out first, then the other element moves in. The process therefor requires at least 2 pips to accomplish.

[Darren Buxbaum]

If the camp followers are forced out by a "friendly" recoiling element into the camp (now recognised as a garrison), will the displaced camp followers count as a lost element?

Cheers,
Darren

[David Kuijt]

The "replaced" means no more than this: if you garrison a camp, you can at some point move the garrison out; if you like you could also move some other element into it to replace the original garrison. This isn't some magic replacement movement system; if it was there would have to be some statement about what happens to the replaced element (does it recoil; is it destroyed; etc.) and it would probably be in the movement section of the rules.

Darren -- p11, last paragraph. Camp followers never count as a lost element for victory conditions.

[Darren Buxbaum]

David,
Thanks. Sorry for the oversight.

Cheers,
Darren

[Paul A. Hannah]

For such hubbub to be going on in and around S.Kirby's camps in his very first DBA games (something that's usually a rarity for many of us), quite obviously, he must have some gorgeous looking camps. We want to see pictures! smile.gif

[imported_S.Kirby]

Muchos gracias for the comments and explanations guyz. Will be following David's proposals, about having the elements destroyed when pushed out! I think after playing, this is the only fair way. Otherwise the movement benefits get silly.

Unfortunately, my only camp at the moment is very, very basic. I didn't have time to do a dedicated one before the first game. Just has a slight hill, a tree and some lonely sheep, which the Samurai stated were the target for his attack on my poor Sung (stolen sheep - rare in Japan - so they wanted them back!) Am in the process of designing and obtaining materials for some better, dedicated camps.

I have done a short report in the Battle Report section for anyone who's interested. Next game is planned for May 24th. Without teleporter camps!

[saflex]

So, i actually had your general trapped between your camp and my horde of cavalry after all..

You shall not escape so easily next game.

[CT Yankee]

Originally posted by S.Kirby:
...Will be following David's proposals, about having the elements destroyed when pushed out! ... Point of clarification - The garrison is not pushed out and destroyed. The recoiling element which contacts the camp is destroyed. Only Camp Followers can be pushed out.

[imported_S.Kirby]

CT Yankee, agreed, but the situation was that a unit was not recoiled but moved voluntarily into the camp. David points out that the rules don't really allow this use of movement. See his post below about pg 7, para 3. Didn't fully understand the rules at the time. Still don't understand all of them!! Gonna have to study the rules and Bobs commentaries many more times! And of course play many more games......yippee!

Thanks for all the suggestions and help guyz.

Saflex - My Gen could still have evaded your Cv, just would've taken more time. KJ would have been less lucky though in the 3rd game! Could've won in 3 bounds!