"Its not cheating if your only doing it to win!"

[philistinejim]

Perhaps not the best choice of signatures by yours truely, however, it is the unofficial sarcastic motto of my local wargaming club NOWS. Here is kind of how it came into being.

Every club has experienced the "cheater" you know the guy who moves his unit 3 times at 4 inches per turn and somehow that adds up to 20 inches? The guy who wheels the line then forms column and then moves some more and ends up right where he wants to be and so on....

A number of our members have discussed this issue many times and we have discerned there are two kinds of cheaters:
1) Those who are doing it to win. For some reason they have to win regardless of the means.
2) Those who cheat, well, because they can. These are your pathalogical cheaters and they even at times cheat themselves into a losing situation.

The former at least have the logic of "The ends justifies the means". (not ethical but logical)
The later are well, hopeless!

Thus, the former is a bit less reprehensible than the hopeless ones.

So having this unofficial grading system, the standard joke at our local games goes something like this:
I say "Hey, Fred you can not do that." Fred says "Why not?" I say "Because it's against the rules!" Fred then says "Well, I was only doing it to win smile.gif " I Say "Well it's OK then smile.gif " NOW fix it! :D Fred corrects the mistake and the game continues.
( Fred is fictional of course)

It must be stated that most of us wargamers find cheating in games reprehensible. And thus the above inside joke.

I will state IMHO that in real War cheating is usually OK. As long as you are doing it to win!

But that is another story.


Jim K

[Paul A. Hannah]

The grammatical pedant in me hastens to suggest the following friendly correction to your group's whimsical motto:

"It's not cheating, if you're only doing it to win." smile.gif

[Rich]

My pet peeve is when people move elements around and take back the move, but did not mark the original location. You then end up with pieces all over the place. But I think this is normally due to forgetfulness, rather than cheating smile.gif

[xeswop]

The rules say a legal move cannot be taken back. If a player has not marked where the element came from then suggest this rule.

[Richard III]

An interesting explanation.

Of course, all those outside your gaming club don't know this, and so it just sounds like you're saying it's alright to cheat if you can get away with it.

There are plenty of people about who think this in our increasingly success-driven world.

The best one I ever heard was, "Well, my dad always said, 'if you're not cheating, you're not trying.'"

What a thing to tell your kid...

RIII

[ June 21, 2005, 06:51: Message edited by: Richard III ]

[Cuchulain (2)]

Jim
I just thought it was funny. A bit like "Its only illegal if you get caught"
Cheers
C

[Kanishka]

The real world doesn't have any rules - other than those of physics, biology, etc - and you can't cheat at those!!

Hence there is no such thing as cheating in "real" warfare. You may not follow agreed upon rules of conduct such as the Geneva conventinos, etc - but that isn't cheating - it's jsut nasty!!

[Macbeth]

Thats the difference between wargaming and real war.

If someone cheats in wargaming then you can refuse to play them.

If someone plays at real war differently than the accepted conditions, you can't refuse to participate in their invasion of your country.

Cheers

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Of course that depends on how relative your view of morality is...

Originally posted by Kanishka:
The real world doesn't have any rules - other than those of physics, biology, etc - and you can't cheat at those!!

Hence there is no such thing as cheating in "real" warfare. You may not follow agreed upon rules of conduct such as the Geneva conventinos, etc - but that isn't cheating - it's just nasty!!

[imported_JamesLDIII]

Real War aside, I did find your club joke amusing, and your assessment of cheaters spot on!

Originally posted by philistinejim:
So having this unofficial grading system, the standard joke at our local games goes something like this:
I say "Hey, Fred you can not do that." Fred says "Why not?" I say "Because it's against the rules!" Fred then says "Well, I was only doing it to win smile.gif " I Say "Well it's OK then smile.gif " NOW fix it! :D Fred corrects the mistake and the game continues.
( Fred is fictional of course)

Jim K

[Jim Rapczynski]

When I was in the infantry we used to say "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying." I was never adverse to violating a boundary or two, or maybe grabbing some extra ammo. I would never cheat on the MILES though. (MILES is, simply, Army laser tag equipment.) I guess it comes down to not cheating the evaluation protocol, but using every means available to accomplish the mission.

[philistinejim]

Originally posted by Richard III:
An interesting explanation.

Of course, all those outside your gaming club don't know this, and so it just sounds like you're saying it's alright to cheat if you can get away with it.

There are plenty of people about who think this in our increasingly success-driven world.

The best one I ever heard was, "Well, my dad always said, 'if you're not cheating, you're not trying.'"

What a thing to tell your kid...

RIII Richard,

As the "motto" is off logic enough that it usually will either get the raised eyebrow and we explain, or recognized as a joke as we laugh. It took me longer to get it out to all here as my free time is always too short, so when I get few free moments I like to use them to get a turn or 16 in on line. Still, I did try to mail you a few times upon your first enquiry but your mailbox was full.

Anyhow, you are right about the world loosing much of it's Chivalry. The motto stands out as ridiculous to those with any chivalry left, so when we do not get a response, we know it is time to worry. It also gives an out to those caught in the act and avoids escalation into a big fight.

In hind sight I should have put a smile.gif after it to let all know it was a joke.

Jim K

[APHooper]

I like winning as much as the next player, but I can't whole-heartedly enjoy victory in a game in which I feel like I've bent or broken the rules in some way. (Of course, Phil's unique interpretation of the English language can make it very hard NOT to cheat in some regard.) Your motto is amusing on the surface level, but I would be uncomfortable being part of a group that chose to express its values in that way. I mean, that could probably be the UNOFFICIAL motto of EVERY game club, but I still wouldn't be comfortable putting it on paper, a web site, or a Tee-shirt.

Oh, and Bob? If you want to enforce the rules in regards to not taking back moves once the hand leaves the stand, that surely obeys the letter of the rule, but it's also an excellent way to be sure that the player in question will not be interested in playing you again. I want my opponent to feel that he had the freedom to do whatever HE wanted to do, even if it bent or broke a rule, and that I still beat him like a rented mule while scrupulously following them.

Andy Hooper
Bacteria Valley

[derek]

Hullo
This quote:
"Well, my dad always said, 'if you're not cheating, you're not trying.'"
Sounds just like a lawyer :D
Followed by :mad:
The game has rules!
Agreed that Phil's English is difficult to interpret (and I studied English at University :confused: )
Agreed that I (& local wargamers) have had our own interpretation of the rules (based on confusion) which was nicely explained by Bob on this forum.
We should strive to play by the rules. It is especially important to inculcate youngsters to "play by the rules".
Kind Regards
Derek

[philistinejim]

"Your motto is amusing on the surface level, but I would be uncomfortable being part of a group that chose to express its values in that way. I mean, that could probably be the UNOFFICIAL motto of EVERY game club, but I still wouldn't be comfortable putting it on paper, a web site, or a Tee-shirt."

Andy,

Me thinks this is getting a little too P.C. for this Philistine. I never thought of the Tee Shirt idea though, Man I bet we could sell a slew of em. ;) But the organizing of such an endevour as a fundraiser would be too much like work,... so the club members will most likely just have another beer and laugh at such a suggestion.

By the way our Club is probably the oldest ongoing wargaming club in North America being in existance since the early 1970's, in spite of our Midwestern politically incorrect banter.

In fact if you are totally comfortable with us ... we are probably doing something wrong. :D


Jim K

Just a Philistine's point of view.