View Full Version : 3Cm element Combat Factors
06-12-2005, 03:49 PM
A while ago whilst surfing things DBA, I came across some comments about the combat factors for 3Cm elements. The author said that it could be argued that at +2/+4 the were the wrong way round, and that 3Cm elements should be better against foot but worse against mounted (after all, only poor warriors rode camels, their betters rode horses .....).
Anyone have any comments?
06-12-2005, 04:46 PM
Certainly not true of my Tuaregs. Who'd want a horse in the middle of the Sahara?
Hannibal Ad Portas
06-12-2005, 05:40 PM
I think that the camels are more effective against mounted because many horses are somewhat fearful of camels, don't like their smell. I see no reason for camels to be more effective against foot than they are now. They probably aren't as stable a mount as the horse for weapons use and certainly aren't as fast. The camel is a good fighter in dunes and oases though. Camels can use group moves in these terrain types and are not subject to the -2 for bad going.
06-12-2005, 06:12 PM
Factors are based upon judgement of effectiveness vs. other troop types, not upon how wealthy the warriors were who rode them.
In several battles between the Byzantines and Moors the Moors set up with a ring of camels and their troops firing bows and throwing javelins and nasty names from between and under the camels. This worked great against the Vandals. The Byzantines dismounted and slaughtered them. In other words, their factors should be good against mounted (Vandals), and the Byzantines certainly supported the higher factor against mounted concept (because they dismounted to face the camels on foot rather than stay on their nice shiny horses).
06-12-2005, 08:42 PM
I think the comment about wealth refers to the preferences of Arabs tehmselves - if htey were rich they rode horses, leaving camels or foot for those not rich enough. Arguably the Tauregs were not a wealthy tribe/people!!
Phil Barker's new rules, DBMM, have indeed reversed the factors - Cm are 2 vs mounted and 3 vs foot. But they "quick kill" Knights and make cavalry flee if they beat them.
The 3 factor vs foot is still worse than cavalry or Kn (both now 4).
So they really are going to be a rather poor troop type.
DBMM is of course set up for a-historical games as well as historical ones, so includes a set of points to allow fights betwen armies of "equal fighting power" - these have not been updated from DBM yet, but I imagine camels are going to be a lot cheaper than they were!!
Definitions of Cm from DBMM:
CAMELRY, including all others who either fight from camels, or dismount from them to fight on foot, but keep them close at hand to act as an obstacle or disorder cavalry by frightening horses. They are all irregular.
Superior (S): Exceptionally heavily armoured or exceptionally feared and fanatical camel riders fighting exclusively hand-to-hand, such as Parthian 2nd century A.D. cataphract camelry or Tuaregs.
Ordinary (O): Camel riders of nations that used them as the poor manís substitute for a horse or for raiding, the riders fighting mounted or dismounting to fight with bows such as Midianites, or with javelins or swords such as most Bedouin.
Inferior (I): Cameleers improvised by mounting troops on pack camels such as those used by Cyrus against the Lydians, or that sometimes fight behind a barrier of tethered camels such as Moors.
Exception (X): Camels disguised as elephants to frighten animals, and also Chinese paper lions. These are both available only as an Unusual Troops stratagem. They move as if Baggage (I) except they can contact mounted. They fight as Elephants (I) against mounted and as Camelry (I) against other troops, except that they panic and destroy Elephants.
06-13-2005, 05:02 PM
Posted by Kaniska Phil Barker's new rules, DBMM, have indeed reversed the factors - Cm are 2 vs mounted and 3 vs foot. But they "quick kill" Knights and make cavalry flee if they beat them. Interesting. For many sets of rules it has been assumed that Camelry should have a better factor against mounted. The DBMM rules reverse this, making the factor lower, but compensating somewhat for this by making the effects of being beaten worse.
After reading the original piece on 3Cm factors, if I had wanted my own house rule to reflect this assessment, I would have gone for +3 v Foot, +2 v Mounted. Catch the opponents in Dunes or Oasis and Camelry would be a much more formidable opponent.
Having only ever played a couple DBM games and (only recently), DBMM might be worth looking into.
06-13-2005, 07:04 PM
I found this comment in the DBMM rules from Phil's website.
Note: I recently realized that we have had camel effect the wrong way round. The only instance of mounted camel men wrecking mounted troops was against Lydian fast knights and Vegetius thinks them useless against cavalry, while the Tuareg often swept away foot, so that CF of 2 against mounted (with QK against knights and 3 against foot (would be 4 if dismounted as Bd, 2 if as Ps) fits better. Removing the recoil outcome produces roughly the right effect for Cm (I) against Vandals and Byzantines..
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