Both generals lost

[cpagano]

Well this is a first for me:

In a current DBAol game my general was recoiled into my opponent's general and both were eliminated.
That was the second element lost for each of us so game will continue without a general on either side.

Any historical precedence for such a thing? smile.gif

-Chris Pagano

[Martian]

I've had this happen many times in Gallic vs Roman games.

Long before the BOD rules!

[xeswop]

Precedent for the commanders-in-chief of two armies killing each other in combat? That is really a rare one.

There are quite a few battles where both commanders were killed, a recent classic is the Battle for Quebec with both Wolfe and Montcalm being killed. Further back, a battle that I will put on at Historicon, Alkazar, 1578- Battle of the Three Kings -- had three kings (commanders) die in the battle. The king of the Moors had been poisoned by a rival at the start and was in effect dying during the whole battle.

I said "quite a few" but those are the only two that come to mind. Others help out here!

[Chris Jones]

Indeed contrary to many DBA battles it was comparatively rare for the C in C to die in ancient battles - in fact in many of them it was the flight of the C in C / King which heralded the defeat. Beaten commanders usually escaped the field - they often did not the executioners later!

[imported_Inari7]

I don't believe that when a unit in DBA is destroyed, means that all in the unit are killed including the general. What I think happens is the unit is routed/made not effective. I think in most battles in modern times, and I believe in ancient times that far fewer men died then fled the field. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

[Darren Buxbaum]

I would have to agree with the fact that it may not be the general that has physically died, but more than likely the standard bearer. Also there can be some trickery, such as a decoy donning the general's armor/coat-of-arms. This happened with Hunyadi at the Iron Gates when fighting the Ottomans. A close friend wore his armor when spies intercepted a message mentioning that the Janissaries were to target Hunyadi (his death would be the key to defeating the Hungarians). The friend died (and was immortalized in a poem), the Ottomans were decieved and Hunyadi's forces routed them. So the physical well-being of the general is not necessarily important in the game of DBA, but is to battle reports.
Cheers,
Darren

[ May 30, 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: Darren Buxbaum ]

[Chris Brantley]

Historically, generals being killed or mortally wounded in combat wasn't rare, especially in the age of hoplite warfare and in the Dark Ages to early middle Ages, where leaders fought in the ranks. Think Somerled or Brian Boru or Harold Godwinson at Hastings for example. It happened on several notable times to the Romans, for example Flamminus at Lake Trasimene, Paullus at Cannae, and Crassus at Carhae. Or Julian the Apostate, who died after battling the Persians from a spear wound.

Others are taken prisoner, committed suicide or fled. A wounded Valens supposedly took shelter in a barn where he was burned alive. Boudica took poison. Xenobia fled on camel. Pompey fled to Egypt and was beheaded. Charles the Bold was cut down in flight and left in a ditch.

Often it was a rumor of the death or wounding of a general that did the damage; troops would get unsteady if they thought their leader was dead, and many generals had to rush around their lines and show themselves in order to reassure their troops. Similarly a medieval king might remove his helm in order to reassure his knights.

I don't think a "dead" generals element in DBA necessarily means that the actual general is dead. My namesake, Brantician, for example, has "survived" numerous catastrophic defeats to lead his Early Imperials in new battles. I see a dead general as more of a disruption of command and control, which could be attributed to the actual death or wounding of the general, the rout of his element's troops (carrying him away fom the battle), abandonment of the field by a cowardly general, or any occurrance which throws the army's battle plan and order into substantial disarray.

[xeswop]

Can we return to the original question and find historical examples of BOTH generals in a battle being killed or taken from the field, that is their "element" being lost (whatever that means in DBA)

[<Jon willacy>]

Amphilpolis in 425BC Has both generals killed. Cleon the Athenian general dies on the battlefield and Brasidas the Spartan dies shortly after the battle on wounds recieved in the fight.

[Dhingis Khan]

Phillipi ends with three of the four generals dead.

At Kosovo I believe the Serbian leader died in the rout and I know a false Serbian deserter killed the Sultan.

[Kanishka]

In 295BC A gallic/Samnite army was defeated by a Roman force- the Roman commander committed "devotio" - sacrificing himself to het weapons of the enemy for victory - when his legions were being defeated.

The Romans went on to win the battle, and it's a safe bet that at least some of the allied commanders were killed!!

Epaminondas, the Theban CinC, was killed at Mantinea in 362BC, and the Spartan King opposing him (Aegesilaus) was wounded.

[orca]

Telemon, in 225, a Gaulish army is sandwiched between 2 roman armies. The Gaulish leaders are killed or captured, and one of the roman commanders is killed.