Encouraging DBA players

[whefam]

I am a frustrated DBA player. DBA has not got a good reputation at our local wargames club.

I think this is due to the style of the rules. It positvely promotes arguments. Most games end like this. Many of my friends (potential opponents) have given up with it. This is sad because DBA is a marvellous game with a unique and clever mechanism that enables fast play.

So there it is...how can I persuade my fellow wargamers to play DBA?

Andy

[xeswop]

Teach people to play. Do a big battle game, give each player a few elements. Little terrain, go to it. Just the fundementals. Then add in some terrain and complex items such as crossing the front. Then give them my commentaries.

I can teach a person in 15 minutes, but it usually takes someone hours -- days to learn to play on their own. There are exceptons, some people are brilliant and fluent in languages so pick up Barkereese in a reading. smile.gif

[John Meunier]

Sounds like you need a simple mechanism for adjudicating disagreements. Maybe an experienced game master (like yourself) to offer opinions or some sort of arbitrary system (dice) for ending log jams.

Command Decision has this great line in it to the effect that regardless of what the rules say the game master is the final say on all disputes. I think that should be printed in all rule books.

If they want to quarrel, of course, you can't stop them.

[Neubauten]

You could hunt down one of those DBA ready reference sheets - looking at one of those instead of thumbing through the rulebook persuaded me to give DBA a second chance.

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by whefam:
I am a frustrated DBA player. DBA has not got a good reputation at our local wargames club.

<snip>

So there it is...how can I persuade my fellow wargamers to play DBA?

Andy Time is a great healer. If you have been playing DBA recently, and they have decided they don't like it, give them time to forget before you try new ways of getting them to play DBA. Then they may start to recover from their formar experiences.

The try organising something which can only be done by DBA - like a one-day campaing or in-club competition. Then they are not being asked to make time to 'play DBA' but playing in a special event for which DBA is just the vehicle. That way you again help to overcome any resistance they have built up from bad experiences. Do it over the summer or at Christmas (a while to wait, I admit) or in some other way that encourages them not to take it too seriously so they don't start arguing over the rules.

Then introduce DBA when games have to be arranged at the last moment due to cancellations or other unforseen events - pitch it as 'better than nothing', a way of doing some wargaming rather than just sitting at home that week. Again, this should encourage a give-or-take atmosphere.

Finally - TA DA! - you should have your club mates playing and enjoying DBA socially, and not getting too het up about rules interpretations when they do so.

That's how its happened at my club, anyway.

Andrew

[Roland Fricke]

My own club now has about 8 steady players four of which I recruited. The end game frustration is probably from when they learn about some nuance of the rules which ends up costing them an element and the game.

The first time someone learns about he Psiloi ambush on the first bound is the last time they'll set up knights next to bad going. Or when they find out mounted suffer the -2 for fighting someone in bad going while foot do not if they themselves are outside. Or when the moving in a BWD becomes interpretive. These learning experiences can be frustrating.

But experience is the best cure and if they keep at it and learn most of the nuances they'll learn to enjoy the relative simplicity and speed. I tell someone if they lose a game - so what - you can play another game in the next hour and maybe win one. We have one club memeber who derisively joked for years about why we don't just roll a single D6 and declare a winner becasue DBA was so fast. Never played but just saw the DBA crowd growing and having fun every month.

He bought his first two DBA armies at Coldwars last month.

. . . got another one . .

[Pthomas]

Originally posted by Roland Fricke:

These learning experiences can be frustrating. Agreed. When I play new players I ask them do you want me to comment on why I am doing things and also comment on their own moves during the game. This is a great learning tool. It keeps new players from making mistakes because you tell them what you are planning and what mistakes they are making before you take advantage of them.

Most new players appreciate this for a few games anyway, then they seem to want to learn from there own mistakes. However, until they have seen all/most of the vagaries of the DBA rules I try not to 'shoot sitting ducks.'

[David Schlanger]

Originally posted by Pthomas:
When I play new players I ask them do you want me to comment on why I am doing things and also comment on their own moves during the game. This is a great learning tool. It keeps new players from making mistakes because you tell them what you are planning and what mistakes they are making before you take advantage of them.

Most new players appreciate this for a few games anyway, then they seem to want to learn from there own mistakes. However, until they have seen all/most of the vagaries of the DBA rules I try not to 'shoot sitting ducks.' This is the approach I use when teaching the game to new players.

DS

[Roland Fricke]

In fact I use the same verbal coaching techniques. Even better when I have two players and don't have to play so I can comment on possible moves by each player. This avoids any rude awakenings but, even though you've told someone about these things (and overwhelmed them in the process), until they experience the effects by themselves its not really learned. Make sure its not a competitive enviroment as well so it puts less emphasis on winning.

[cpagano]

One piece of advice is to fix what they don't like. Allow your group to use interpretations or small house variations that they like and which will make the game more appealing to them. It also gives the players a feeling of "ownership" over the game.

Another piece of advice (which was mentioned below) is to play multi-player giant-battle scenario games rather than 1:1 tournament style games. In my group we sometimes have traditional DBA tournaments and other times we run big games. We enjoy both styles but an advantage of the big games is that everyone is sitting around the table together sharing the same experience. It is more social and less competitive. Losing is less personal. You use the DBA rules and learn the DBA mechanics but it doesn't really feel like your playing "DBA." Before I managed to collect 4 Roman and 4 L. Carthaginian armies for my big battle games we played a few games with some odd armies filling in and it was still very fun.

-Chris P.

[Ed Dillon]

Originally posted by David Schlanger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pthomas:
When I play new players I ask them do you want me to comment on why I am doing things and also comment on their own moves during the game. This is a great learning tool. It keeps new players from making mistakes because you tell them what you are planning and what mistakes they are making before you take advantage of them.

Most new players appreciate this for a few games anyway, then they seem to want to learn from there own mistakes. However, until they have seen all/most of the vagaries of the DBA rules I try not to 'shoot sitting ducks.' This is the approach I use when teaching the game to new players.

DS </font>[/QUOTE]So, will you be this kind to me if I meet you in a tournament at Historicon?
Ed

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Ed Dillon:
So, will you be this kind to me if I meet you in a tournament at Historicon?
Ed Lords of the Sith are only kind when they are attempting to subvert you to the Dark Side. And even then, not during Big Battle Doubles, or else Darth Kuijt (his partner) would unload a Whole Can O Sith Whup-*** on him.

But I am unconcerned -- with our new Big Battle Doubles army Darth Schlanger will be subject to uncontrollable battle-fury. If only I could convince him to crazy-glue a few horns on his forehead and do the black-and-red face paint...

[David Schlanger]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
[QUOTE]But I am unconcerned -- with our new Big Battle Doubles army Darth Schlanger will be subject to uncontrollable battle-fury. If only I could convince him to crazy-glue a few horns on his forehead and do the black-and-red face paint... It wasn't too hard to convince me...

DS

[Pozanias]

LOL! :D

Great picture Dave.

[Pthomas]

I feel a great disturbance in the force...

Almost as if, millions of DBA players had cried out and then were silenced...

Obi Wan Pthomas

[Martian]

This bodes well for the rest of the BBDBA teams.

The good guys always triumph in the end!

Mar Tun
Jedi Council

PS. I must agree that sitting two new players down and walking them through a game is also my favorite method of teaching new players.

I also like to run fun scenario games that use the basic DBA mechanics without worrying to much about the 'letter of the law.'

[ June 06, 2005, 12:10: Message edited by: Martian ]

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Martian:
This bodes well for the rest of the BBDBA teams.

The good guys always triumph in the end!
Sure they do. One movie out of six. And even then, the good guys can't win until a bad guy switches sides, which (once again) puts the bad guys on the winning side. :D

[Andrew Ford]

So which of you is going to switch sides in the final battle? smile.gif

(From the choice of icons I know which way I'd bet)

Andrew Ford

[Roland Fricke]

Now we're really getting off topic here but Wizards of the Coast has released a Star Wars miniatures set. See here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=swminis
Click on the Collect miniatuires link.

My son got the revenge of the Sith game and we played once - wasn't bad - simple-and some strategy. Came with 6 painted figures about 25mm tall. Might be able to make a nice HOTT army. Different sets so it looks easy to collect an Imperial and a Rebel army along with some interesting behomoths, flyers or Arty pieces..

[ June 07, 2005, 08:54: Message edited by: Roland Fricke ]