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john svensson
04-20-2012, 01:08 PM
It seems that I can't raise the links to the last "proposed" Book 3 army lists that were posted back in the Fall. If anyone happened to print those out or has insider knowledge........were there any changes to the Norman or Abbysid Arab lists between that and the 2.2 lists? I'd like to cover all the bases as I'm contemplating buying some figs for these. Thanks. John

Haardrada
04-22-2012, 05:57 PM
The last list I saw had 1 x Kn(Gen.), 2 x Kn, 3 x Kn (or 3 x Bd dismounted Kn 1066), 1 x Kn or 1 x Cav, 1 x Kn or 1 x Cav or 1 x Lh, 2 Sp, 2 x Aux (Greek) or 1 x Sp + 1 x Bw or 1 x Ps. as I remember.Plus with the latest update of the rules you can swap up to 3 allied elements.

I have done much the same as you by trying to cover every base and await the final version.

john svensson
04-23-2012, 07:49 AM
Thanks, when did the dismountable KNs enter the picture anyways? My 2.0 lists just have them as Kn with no dismount option, yet I've seen some West Norman army photos that show that option. Was it in 1.0, dropped for 2.0 and re-instated in 2.2 and 3.0 lists? I didn't think there were many, if any changes to the army lists between 2.0 and 2.2?? :??? More lead/pewter to buy..... John

miros
04-23-2012, 10:58 AM
Thanks, when did the dismountable KNs enter the picture anyways? My 2.0 lists just have them as Kn with no dismount option, yet I've seen some West Norman army photos that show that option. Was it in 1.0, dropped for 2.0 and re-instated in 2.2 and 3.0 lists? I didn't think there were many, if any changes to the army lists between 2.0 and 2.2?? :??? More lead/pewter to buy..... John


There are no army list changes from 2.0 -> 2.2. The dismounted knights are new in 3.0. The East Franks get dismounted knights in 2.2 though.

Bobgnar
04-23-2012, 08:06 PM
III/52 WEST FRANKISH & NORMAN 888 AD - 1072 AD
This list covers the armies of the West Frankish kingdom as it evolved into the Kingdom of France. It includes Norman armies from their adoption of the Frankish feudal system circa 923 until the completion of their conquest of England and the organisation of the Sicilian Norman state. “Milites” was the contemporary name for the upper-class horseman with acorn-shaped helmet, elbow and thigh length hooded mail shirt, long kite shield, light lance and heavy sword familiar from the Bayeux tapestry and who would soon be termed “knights”. When invading England in 1066, many of the milites could not be accompanied by horses. Reference: Armies of the Dark Ages I. Heath, The Battle of Hastings S. Morillo (ed).
III/52 West Frankish or Norman army: 1 x General (3Kn), 3 x milites (3Kn), 3 x milites (3Kn or 4Bd), 2 x milites (Kn or if Bretons Cv), 2 x archers (Bw) or spearmen (Sp) or Sicilian Greeks (Ax), 1 x archers (Bw or Ps) or crossbowmen (Cb) or servants, grooms and peasants (Hd) or Gascon javelinmen (Ps or LH).
Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 2 if Frankish, 3 if Norman. Enemies: III/18, III/19a, III/21b, III/33, III/34b, III/35b, III/40b, III/45, III/46, III/52, III/53, III/65, III/66, III/72, III/73a, III/76, III/77. Allies: III/21 or III/33 or III/40b.


III/37 ABBASID ARAB 747 AD - 945 AD
This list covers the armies of the Abbasid caliphate from the first revolt of Abu Muslim's Khurasani Arab troops against the Umayyads. Political and religious discontent with Umayyad rule spread the rebellion, but apart from massacre of the ruling family, the rebels had few common motives, so the only result was a change of dynasty to the Abbasids (in whom the caliphate now became hereditary) and the capital being moved from Damascus to a new city which became Baghdad and then again in 835 to Samarra. The Umayyads retained only their territories in Spain. After 830, Persia was lost to the Tahirids and then to the Saffarids and Samanids, Morocco was taken over by the Idrisids and Tunisia first to the Aghlabids, then the Fatimids, Egypt was taken over by the Tulunids, eastern Arabia in 897 by the fanatic Qaramita sect then after a period of regained Abbasid control 905-968 by the expanding Fatimids. In 945, the Abbasid heartlands were taken over by the Buyids, who relegated the Baghdad caliphate to a purely spiritual role. Mailed cavalry were initially traditional Arab skirmishing lancers, later supplemented by nominally Turkish ghulams who also had bow, used the stirrup and often rode armoured horses. Foot continued to be spearmen with big shields and archers. Swords were still the straight “saif”, not the Hollywood scimitar. Flags and guardsmen’s uniforms were black. Mutatawwi’a were unpaid religious volunteers. Zanj were East African slave troops with sword, javelins and shield. Faraghina were mercenary Turkic horse archers with a lower status than ghulams. References: Armies of the Dark Ages I. Heath, The Armies of the Caliphs H. Kennedy.
III/37a Abbasid Arab army 747-835 AD: 1 x General (Cv), 3 x lancers (Cv), 3 x spearmen (Sp), 2 x archers (Bw or Ps), 1 x Zanj (3Bd) or Bedouin volunteers (LH), 1 x Mutatawwi’a (3Wb) or Bedouin volunteers (LH), 1 x town militia (Hd) or archers (Ps).
Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 1. Enemies: II/55b, II/55c, II/62a, III/10c, III/11b, III/12, III/15, III/16, III/20b, III/29, III/31, III/33, III/37a, III/38.
III/37b Abbasid Arab army 836-945 AD: 1 x General (Cv), 2 x ghulams (Cv), 1 x lancers (Cv), 1 x Faraghina horse archers (LH), 2 x spearmen (Sp), 2 x archers (Bw or Ps), 2 x Zanj (3Bd), 1 x Mutatawwi’a (3Wb) or Dailami (4Ax) or rope-pull stone-throwers (Art).
Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 1. Enemies: II/55c, II/62a, III/12, III/15, III/16, III/29, III/37b, III/43b, III/49, III/51, III/54, III/58a. Ally: III/54.

john svensson
04-24-2012, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the data Bob. Lastly, one for the Norman expert(s).....the (3) Kn or Bd, jabber from a search states that Normans dismounted as Spearmen rather than the traditional sword armed blade. True? Affects what figs I get to cover them. Of course, since this is 6mm I could place a row of sword blades in front of a row of spear to represent the Bd, if that makes sense.
Also, for the bow, were they all crossbow equiped at that time or would a mix of cross and longbow be more appropriate? Thanks for any advice. John

Bobgnar
04-24-2012, 01:00 PM
If you follow the DBA lists info, then there are both Bows and Cross Bows. No longbow at this time.
2 x archers (Bw) or spearmen (Sp) or Sicilian Greeks (Ax), 1 x archers (Bw or Ps) or crossbowmen (Cb) or servants, grooms and peasants (Hd) or Gascon javelinmen (Ps or LH).

2 Bows and either another Bow or a CB or Ps with bow
The Horde of camp follower types would be interesting.

Haardrada
04-26-2012, 02:12 AM
If you follow the DBA lists info, then there are both Bows and Cross Bows. No longbow at this time.
2 x archers (Bw) or spearmen (Sp) or Sicilian Greeks (Ax), 1 x archers (Bw or Ps) or crossbowmen (Cb) or servants, grooms and peasants (Hd) or Gascon javelinmen (Ps or LH).

2 Bows and either another Bow or a CB or Ps with bow
The Horde of camp follower types would be interesting.

Not wishing to pick faults,but this format for the new lists worries me.Not just with this list. The Gascon troops would only be available to Western Franks and not Normans in Sicily. I know it may just be used as an example,but some gamers may take this as the letter. It may be in the description that only limited space is available,but if so is it not better to use the format of 1x Ps (jav) or LH? Or make space in the Army note that Gascons are only available to Franks?

Don't get me wrong I think that 3.0 is the way forward,but after years of list mis-interpretation and exploitation some clarity is needed.

David Constable
04-26-2012, 05:23 AM
Thanks for the data Bob. Lastly, one for the Norman expert(s).....the (3) Kn or Bd, jabber from a search states that Normans dismounted as Spearmen rather than the traditional sword armed blade. True? Affects what figs I get to cover them. Of course, since this is 6mm I could place a row of sword blades in front of a row of spear to represent the Bd, if that makes sense.
Also, for the bow, were they all crossbow equiped at that time or would a mix of cross and longbow be more appropriate? Thanks for any advice. John

I am going to do my East Franks dismounted knights (III/52) with sword, that way they can be Sp or Bd, also they will be distinctive from other Sp.
I intend to do III/51 and III/52 as late armies with kite shields.

David Constable

Lydia
04-26-2012, 08:42 AM
If the rule that you can field allies in your army sticks, then it would be sensible for Phil to strip allies out from any DBA lists they are already included in. The Bretons in the Norman list would be an obvious one, especially as they make the list very specific to Western Europe. In Sicily the allied cavalry was Aghlabid (IIRC), so a 'proper' Normans in Sicily list would be a fairly cosmopolitan affair! Anyway, don't be too surprised if the lists change.

Bobgnar
04-26-2012, 02:04 PM
The allies shown are
xIII/21 ITALIAN LOMBARD 584 AD - 1076 AD
III/33 EARLY MUSLIM NORTH AFRICA & SICILY 696 AD - 1160 AD
III/40b Viking army 850-1280 AD

The Breton list has Normans as possible enemy but not an ally. Allies refer to political entities being allied so whole armies would join together, as for Big Battle. 3 of such an ally army can join the main army in a 12 element game. There is a reference to a "Breton contingent" at Hasting but not Breton army as an ally.


Allies are in the version posted to Yahoo

ALLIED CONTINGENTS
An army is allowed ally contingents from another listed army specified at the bottom of its own army list. The allies listed include only armies that fought on the same side in a historical battle and usually only if the allied army is of substantially different troop types or has a completely separate command structure.

The advantage of using an allied contingent apart from it being necessary to represent an important historical battle is that it may provide specialist troops not otherwise available. The compensating disadvantage is that its elements cannot be moved as a group with elements of the main army or of another allied contingent so will probably be a serious PIP drain.

A single allied contingent consists of exactly 3 elements from its own army list. In the rare instances when more than 1 allied army provided allied contingents at the same battle, two allied contingents from different armies are allowed, each of exactly 2 elements.

An allied contingent must include the general’s element of its army (which does not function as a general) and at least 1 element from the entry with the largest number of elements. If the army has 2 troop types with that number allowed, the player chooses which to use. Any 3rd element is the player’s choice of those elements remaining unused.
Allied elements are exchanged for the same number of elements from the main army’s list, which cannot include its general.

Lydia
04-27-2012, 06:24 AM
Oh I see. In DBMM Bretons are an ally so they can only be present if an allied contingent is chosen. Here they are included in the army as an option but they aren't allies. All is not lost as to get Normans in Sicily I can simply field Aghlabid 3Cv as an ally, replacing the Bretons. It would be a bit of a cheat if I fielded Bretons and Aghlabids together though.

Haardrada
04-27-2012, 11:36 AM
Oh I see. In DBMM Bretons are an ally so they can only be present if an allied contingent is chosen. Here they are included in the army as an option but they aren't allies. All is not lost as to get Normans in Sicily I can simply field Aghlabid 3Cv as an ally, replacing the Bretons. It would be a bit of a cheat if I fielded Bretons and Aghlabids together though.

That was my line of thinking, but The Normans in Italy /Sicily had access to other"franks" which came along with them & Light cavalry scouts that can cover the Cav/LH options.

Haardrada
05-09-2012, 05:31 PM
That was my line of thinking, but The Normans in Italy /Sicily had access to other"franks" which came along with them & Light cavalry scouts that can cover the Cav/LH options.

Further research I have made since my last post leads me to expand upon my previous comments. Robert Guiscard had Muslim troops available in numbers from 1076 as well as Sicilian Greeks.After his death in 1085 his sons still fought over his Italian lands until 1089 using Norman not Sicilian armies.Therefore I believe the DBA lists have overlooked this period on the Italian mainland and end the Western Frank & Norman list in 1072 and commence the Sicilian list from that date.This omits 17 years from the Normans of Southern Italy.