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jacar
02-16-2012, 02:12 AM
This is my playtest of DBA 3.0. I was testing out how the game plays without any support rules. The report can be found here.

http://johnswargames.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/pyrrhus-invades-italy/

John

Ammianus
02-16-2012, 04:11 PM
Nice job! Despite my LIR (W) & Germanic WB armies; I am beginning to warm to the no rear support mechanism. The movement rates & set up, not so much.

Matt
02-17-2012, 01:34 AM
John,

Nice report. I have toyed with the idea of getting rid of Pk support also, but havent' play tested it. My thought was Pk are +3/+4, as they are now, but receive a +3/+1 bonus if in contact with only one enemy element. This keeps them powerful to their front, but if their line is interpenetrated they become weak quickly. Side to side contact would be very dangerous for Pk in this model!

I was, and am still, a bit resistant to the longer move rates, but like you are starting to warm up to them. The game seems to revolve around protecting one's flanks, unless you have the QK ability when you can try and engineer a breakthrough in the center. I think there are some issues with elements that can double move into contact, Wb come to mind, and others have expressed concern over Ps. I have yet to try the Bd v. Wb match-up, but will be interested to see how it plays out. Against Sp, I have come to the conclusion that Wb need to get a group of 6 elements - 3 elements wide all with rear support - into contact to win. Sp cannot deal with this, and I think Sp armies cannot prevent this sort of contact. I haven't play tested a wide range of armies so there may be some exceptions.

Cremorn
02-17-2012, 04:57 AM
I have yet to try the Bd v. Wb match-up, but will be interest to see how it plays out.

I am finding that this matchup is pretty even (playing the 15th Feb version). Bd at 5 vs 3 is a good chance at doubling, but will definitely force a recoil. Bd pursuit results in them fighting at 3vs 3 and therefore a 50/50? (good) chance for Wb QK. Whatever, the fight is fast and destructive.
RIchard

ps. Thanks for the report!

jacar
02-17-2012, 11:08 AM
John,

Nice report. I have toyed with the idea of getting rid of Pk support also, but havent' play tested it. My thought was Pk are +3/+4, as they are now, but receive a +3/+1 bonus if in contact with only one enemy element. This keeps them powerful to their front, but if their line is interpenetrated they become weak quickly. Side to side contact would be very dangerous for Pk in this model!


Interesting idea but the problem here becomes that the pike get double penalized when flanked. Their CF drops to 3 or 4 AND they get a -1 for flank.


I was, and am still, a bit resistant to the longer move rates, but like you are starting to warm up to them. The game seems to revolve around protecting one's flanks, unless you have the QK ability when you can try and engineer a breakthrough in the center. I think there are some issues with elements that can double move into contact, Wb come to mind, and others have expressed concern over Ps. I have yet to try the Bd v. Wb match-up, but will be interested to see how it plays out. Against Sp, I have come to the conclusion that Wb need to get a group of 6 elements - 3 elements wide all with rear support - into contact to win. Sp cannot deal with this, and I think Sp armies cannot prevent this sort of contact. I haven't play tested a wide range of armies so there may be some exceptions.

Battles revolve around protecting flanks too! :D With the blade and pike match up, one strategy is to wait for one pike to out push its line and then flank and kill it with a reserve force. Psiloi are great for this.

I played out Magnesia last night. The Seleucids were setup similar to the real battle with their heavy cavalry and Sch on the left A pike phalanx interspersed with Elephants (2 pike, and elephant, 2 pike) 2 spiloi and a light cavalry on their right. The Romans took the Ax option and added an allied Kn for the cost of a Cv. They lined from left to right with 2 Psiloi ( in column near the river on their left) 4 blades in line 2 Sp in line and 2 Ax in column. The Cv Gen and Kn were last.

The battle started with the Romans trying to expand their front. The Seleucids advanced cautiously with low pips. Romans then rolled low pips so they also advanced cautiously. Romans decided to shuffle for better advantage (low pips again) and moved a Sp to cover the El. Seluecids were going to have none of it and charged with their Kn Gen and Kn into the Roman Cv Gen and Kn. Fighting would be back and forth in this sector.

Rome responded by barkering the Seleucid line and then advanced the Ax to cover the cavalry flank. Selucids charged across the front. They pushed back the flanks around the spear and the elephant doubled it (CF 5-2). The Sch charged in and initially drove back the Ax (CF 3-1). Rome moved a Psiloi over to hit the elephant. It actually was short by a half BW but was in contact to the front so the new rule allowed for the side slip. The Elephant was overlapped twice and the Psiloi Qk. The Ax also Qk the Sch. On the seleucid left a Bd was killed by a Lh (double overlap) and a Psiloi was forced to flee. Rome rolled low for pips and, while having a couple of flank opportunities, had to settle for frontal attacks.

Here is where the battle started to get crazy. The Lh, charged to attack the Ps. The Ps doubled the Lh killing it. The cavalry battle remain in a deadlock but at this point the Selucids were outflanked and the Selucid Kn was destroyed. The battle was 3-3 at this point. The seleucids advanced to attack a Bd with Pk to the front and a Wb flanking it. This would end the game if they won. Instead they tied. Rome managed 2 flanking attacks at this point. 1 Phalanx was double flanked and another was single flanked. both were destroyed. The battle ended 5-3 + a Sch.

One feature of this was that toward the end, it felt like Magnesia. The battle broke open and the Roman right won the day by surrounding the disorganized phalanx.

It has not really come up yet but I am inclined to leave the Phalanx at +6 across the board and make them +3 vs shooting or moving to contact with Ps, Bow, Lh or Cv. This will allow them to attack foot shooters/ps effectively but have a tougher time with the more nimble mounted troops (Cv and Lh).

John

snowcat
02-17-2012, 10:46 PM
Perhaps this idea (re Pk and eliminating rear ranks in general) is worth suggesting to Phil, along with the relevant battle report(s).

Ammianus
02-18-2012, 07:35 AM
And remind Pyrrhus to watch out for old ladies throwing roof tiles!

Martyn
02-20-2012, 12:10 PM
I am finding that this matchup is pretty even (playing the 15th Feb version).
15th February? Show off, the rest of us are still on the 2nd Feb draft. ;)

Bd at 5 vs 3 is a good chance at doubling, but will definitely force a recoil. Bd pursuit results in them fighting at 3vs 3 and therefore a 50/50? (good) chance for Wb QK. Whatever, the fight is fast and destructive.
RIchard
In a Bd/Wb confrontation the most likely result is a recoil for the Wb with follow up by the Bd. In a complete battle line there are limited times when a Bd will get into double overlap as the combats on either side are unlikely to go the wrong way.

This is particularly true if the Wb is single ranked. Most times that Wb make an appearance is as a small part of somebody else’s army, where they are a nuisance but not necessarily a game winner. Even when you come up against a full Wb army they have the difficulty of deciding whether to double rank and suffer overlaps at the end of the line or go single rank and not have the fire power in the combat. Also when single ranked a winning Wb will pursue out of contact with an adjacent winning Bd, so will not provide an overlap.


ps. Thanks for the report!

Aye to that. :up

jacar
02-21-2012, 02:12 AM
15th February? Show off, the rest of us are still on the 2nd Feb draft. ;)


My fingers have a mind of their own sometimes. :D It is the same as yours. Feb 2nd.