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Tim in Saskatoon
02-14-2012, 03:22 AM
Sorry if I've missed this somewhere, but:

How many elements may be in contact with a BUA?

I know that a BUA can be assaulted by up to 3 enemy elements.

I know that only two elements can provide"overlap" support, but can additional elements also be in contact to continue to provide full "overlap" support for the second (and third) assaulting elements after the first (and second) elements have recoiled?

Martyn
02-14-2012, 05:28 AM
For clarity the rule is

A BUA can be assaulted by up to 3 enemy elements. Defenders fight each assaulting element separately in succession, counting others still in contact as a tactical factor. Combats cease when defenders are destroyed or all attackers have fought. Troops assaulting or defending a BUA or camp use their combat factor against foot.

My understanding is that only three elements can be in contact, each contacting element carries out an assault supported by those of the other two that are still in contact. If unsuccessful the assaulting element recoils etc and the next contacting element assaults with the support of the remaining element which is still in contact.

However, as usual the wording is not quite clear, mixing the terms contacting and assaulting without clearly identifying that these are the same.

Pillager
02-14-2012, 10:41 AM
There seems to be no limit on how many can be in contact.

But only 3 are designated as "assaulting" and they are the only ones who fight.

So you could use 1 PIP to bring a line of 6 into contact. Three might be recoiled, and next bound you assault with the rest without spending any PIPs.

The limit of 3 seems to be a play balance mechanism.

Martyn
02-14-2012, 11:57 AM
There seems to be no limit on how many can be in contact.

But only 3 are designated as "assaulting" and they are the only ones who fight.

So you could use 1 PIP to bring a line of 6 into contact. Three might be recoiled, and next bound you assault with the rest without spending any PIPs.

The limit of 3 seems to be a play balance mechanism.

That is an interpretation, as I said it is not clear.

Having said that in actual game play are you likely to have the opportunity to assault a BUA with over a quarter of your army, let alone half of it. ;)

Bobgnar
02-14-2012, 02:06 PM
I can find no rule that limits the number of elements that can contact a BUA or Camp. So that is quite clear, no limit. There are of course limits on the size of these but maybe if you surround a BUA you can get 6 elements in contact. You would need lots of PiPs to do this.

The fighting rule is
"Close combat against a BUA or camp:
A BUA or camp can be assaulted by up to 3 enemy elements. Defenders fight each assaulting element separately in succession, in each combat counting others still in contact as a tactical factor. Combats cease when defenders are destroyed or all attackers have fought. Troops assaulting or defending a BUA or camp use their combat factor against foot."

So a Kn assaulting a BUA defended by Cav would use +3 as combat factor.

Tactical Factors
" -1 For each enemy element either overlapping or in front edge and front corner-to-front corner contact with flank or in full front edge contact with rear, or for each 2nd or 3rd enemy element aiding opposing elementís shooting, or for each of up to 2 additional enemy elements also still assaulting a BUA or camp."

"If its total is less than that of its opponent but more than half:
Troops assaulting a BUA or camp recoil. Otherwise:"
So outcome is independent of the troop type in the BUA. So if Kn assault a BUA with Bow garrison, then if the Kn loses, it just recoils.

It is possible for an Invader to pick the edge with an BUA on it, so it can be close enough to surround.

arnopov
02-14-2012, 02:43 PM
With the loss of Ps support, that makes assaulting a Bd garisoned BUA a risky proposition, unless you have the righ combination of troops.
Which seems to be (2xPk or 1xBd or 1xEl)+(2xPs or 2xLH).
Going at it with 3xBd could be very dangerous. If the first combat at 5vs7 doesn't work (6/36 to win, 1/36 to die), the second at 5vs8 encurs serious risks (3/36 to win, 4/36 to die). The third one is positively frightening at 5vs9 (1/36 to win, 6/36 to die). Plus then the return round of combat if an unfortunate stuck.
Is that desired/able ?

Arnopov

Tim in Saskatoon
02-14-2012, 04:42 PM
Thanks for all your help. I think i've figured this out. The key is in the wording of the tactical factors:

"...for each of up to 2 additional enemy elements also still assaulting a BUA or camp"

and as a camp or BUA can only be "assaulted by up to 3 enemy elements" my read is that only the "assaulting" elements can support the other assaulting elements.

but Pillager brings up a good point - can others be brought up into contact and left there for attacking in the subsequent bound (if the BUA isn't taken in the first).

I think I'm going to give them a go in my next game to see how they work out. As arnopov points out, however, if garrisoned by Blade or Spear assaulting could prove to be pretty disastrous.

While those attacking a BUA have different combat outcomes (not being quick-killed - only recoiling regardless of who is defending) it seems the defenders themselves are still subject to their regular outcomes.

Does a BUA count as "good going" for assaulting Knights - which could then quick-kill Spear or Blade garrisons?" - though I guess that would be pretty unlikely - Knights get +3, blades get +5 +4 (for defending a BUA) - even assuming the knights had two supporting elements in the assault dropping the Blades total combat factor to +7... The Blade would have to roll a one and the Knight a six for them to beat the blade garrison and thus quick-kill them... Same goes for Warband...

I suppose the best tactic to deal with an Enemy BUA, garrisoned by Blade or Spear, is to just ignore them and know that they've got a stand tied up in there... unless they sally out...?

Bobgnar
02-15-2012, 02:36 PM
All elements in a BUA are Destroyed if Beaten,
"A recoiling element . . . that is in a BUA or camp, is destroyed. "

arnopov
02-15-2012, 02:45 PM
All elements in a BUA are Destroyed if Beaten,
"A recoiling element . . . that is in a BUA or camp, is destroyed. "

Sure, that's well known.

What are you trying to say ?
A.

Tim in Saskatoon
02-15-2012, 03:58 PM
All elements in a BUA are Destroyed if Beaten,
"A recoiling element . . . that is in a BUA or camp, is destroyed. "
Sure, that's well known.

What are you trying to say ?
A.

I think he was pointing out that I may have missed/forgotten that - which I had - Thanks Bob!