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khr
02-04-2012, 03:09 AM
In my earlier post ( http://fanaticus.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=12522 ) about our playtest I had mentioned that I had some more remarks about bows.

I haven't seen these changes discussed much so far

- Shooting is now possible into and from an overlap - the most significant change, in my opinion
- Shooting is now restricted to "1/2 a basewidth from directly in front" instead of a full basewidth
- How much of the target's edge must be visible to allow shooting is more clearly defined

Some pictures to illustrate the points.

http://kh-ranitzsch.homepage.t-online.de//gallery/hist_bilder/P2011850_Bw_triangle.jpg
The crossbowmen "A" can now shoot at the Spearmen "Z". The black area shows the shooting area delimited by lines from the shooters edge to the target side. I think this also is legal under 2.2, but was certainly not so clear-cut giving the rules in 2.2

http://kh-ranitzsch.homepage.t-online.de//gallery/hist_bilder/P1311810_bow_forward.jpg
The knight on the left is more than half a basewidth from are directly forward of the crossbowmen and cannot be shot at. This area is marked by the ruler. The knights on the right can be shot at. Both were legitimate target under 2.2

http://kh-ranitzsch.homepage.t-online.de//gallery/hist_bilder/P1311803_bow_overlap.jpg
Here the crossbowmen "Z" can shoot at the spearmen at "A", which overlap the yellow knights on the right. This was not possible under 2.2 or any early edition, nor under other DBx rules! The ramification of this rule change needs exploring. It becomes harder to sustain an overlap if bows cover the position.

Note: The situation would be even clearer if there were only one spear element at "A", but that's how the game developed,

---

Given the scale of the game, the changes are plausible, but they constitute a significant change to how bows play.

I think shooting to and from an overlap will have important effects on tactics. Bows now can fight twice in a bouhnd - shoting and close combat- they make good flank supports, either prolonging a line a slightly set back to harrass any enemy overlap, and a reserves behind a line. They are able to cover gaps appearing over a width of three elements. I am not sure how historical all of this would be, especially the use of bows as a reserve.

Greetings
Karl Heinz

platypus01
02-04-2012, 04:41 AM
Hi Karl,

The first example is correct.

The second example is also correct.

The third example is wrong. While you can certainly shoot at the second spear, the first spear is not in overlap. Instead it is in flank contact. You can shoot at overlapping elements, but this is not overlapping.

Cheers,
JohnG

Crocus
02-04-2012, 05:34 AM
Thank you khr for your instructive illustrations. Bw don't figure much in my current games (though I have MILLIONS of unpainted Pictish archers who are going to have to see the light of day!) but I greatly appreciate your time and care posting.

IMHO shooting at troops in support/overlap sounds (third example) fair and "realistic".

In terms of the rules as drafted I think that the reduction of firing arc from 1BW to 1/2BW is an improvement, as shooting at troops close and to the side just doesn't gel for me personally. Again IMHO a shooting zone that extends out from the front corners at 45 degrees might reduce the seeming injustice of the Cb shooting through the mounted, in one example, and the ability to shoot at only one of the mounted but not the other in your other example.

Crocus

khr
02-04-2012, 10:01 AM
While you can certainly shoot at the second spear, the first spear is not in overlap. Instead it is in flank contact. You can shoot at overlapping elements, but this is not overlapping.


Hmm, an aspect I didn't see.

But I am not sure whether you are right.

"An element not in close combat to its front but in mutual right-to-right or left-to-left front corner contact with an enemy element overlaps it."
This definition (corner-to-corner) certainly fits the position of the spear element, and it does not exclude front-edge to side-edge contact.

"Shooting is not possible if either shooters or target are in close combat or giving rear support"
This excludes close combat, but is a flanking element 'in close combat' ? "only the enemy element in front fights, others provide it with Tactical Factors."

On the other hand, the description of the -1 tactical factor does make a distinction between an overlap and flank contact.

Maybe an extra explanation or diagram would help to clarify this.

Greetings
Karl Heinz

kontos
02-04-2012, 10:17 AM
Read your definition again - its says "An element not in close combat to its front..." While not the primary combatant, any unit in front edge contact is, IMHO, in combat as it recoils if the combat is lost. :up

Pillager
02-06-2012, 06:01 AM
>Here the crossbowmen "Z" can shoot at the spearmen at "A", which overlap the yellow knights on the right. This was not possible under 2.2 or any early edition, nor under other DBx rules! >

No, DBMM has always allowed shooting at overlappers.

Elements in flank contact ARE in close combat.

Martyn
02-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Read your definition again - its says "An element not in close combat to its front..." While not the primary combatant, any unit in front edge contact is, IMHO, in combat as it recoils if the combat is lost. :up

I agree with most of this interpretation. The front edge contact is the vital part. The second Pk/Sp element is a valid target as it is not in front edge contact, but would still suffer a push back if the combat were lost.