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larryessick
12-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Rules indicate that board is divided into quarters, these numbered clockwise and terrain placement determined by die result with compulsory features placed first.

Difficult hills and area features other than hills must be placed entirely in the indicated sector. Previous discussion shows that this excludes only gentle hills from area features and allows those to be placed crossing into another sector.

Does this also mean that location of linear features is first determined by die roll and that this determines the starting quadrant?

I see the part about gentle hills may and linear features must extend into an adjacent quarter. But is everyone playing that the rules mean that we dice for starting quarter with linear features?

Next question is this: Does "an adjacent quarter" in the bit about crossing from one to another mean 1 and only 1 quarter? Or, can things cross into 2 or all 3 other quarters? Sometimes there is a difference between "an adjacent" and "one adjacent", sometimes there's not (just talking usage here, not necessarily something in the DBA rules -- the difference between "an" and "one").

Bobgnar
12-15-2011, 06:53 PM
I have played a couple dozen games with these terrain rules. Most did not have rivers, but the same principle applies to roads which we had many of. The few with rivers followed the rules.

"linear features must, extend into an adjacent quarter. A feature that cannot be placed is discarded, even if of a compulsory type."

"LINEAR TERRAIN FEATURES include Waterways, Rivers and Roads. Each must run from one battlefield edge to a different battlefield edge, except that a road can end prematurely by joining another road (or cross it) or end at a BUA, or a river end by joining a waterway. A road cannot run to a waterway edge."

The defender picks a linear feature to put down. Rolls die. Roll die for all features. Starts it at one edge of the rolled quarter and extends it to an adjacent quarter. "An" meaning one of the two that are "adjacent, which we have read to meant that they share a boundray line.

There are some things that can stop the full extension from edge to edge.

There are glitches, as noted below. Anyone find others? The linear feature must go from quarter to another, but not necessarily an opposite edge. In this picture, a river could start on right edge of Quarter 3 and exit on the top edge of Quarter 2. But not from top of 3 to top of 2. If from 3right to 2top, then it can be as close to top of edge as desired as it can be less than 400paces from edges it starts and ends on.


http://www-personal.umich.edu/~abeattie/dbasum2005/DBA3/wwroadbua.jpg

Rich Gause
12-15-2011, 07:03 PM
Obviously if the defender gets a terrain set up like that he has strategically outmaneuvered the invader and since the invader is not allowed to deploy because it is illegal for him to choose a base edge the defender wins by forfeit. :sick

Rich Gause
12-15-2011, 07:06 PM
Have to say that if the rules have obvious problems like this still in them then they are not almost finished IMO.

snowcat
12-15-2011, 07:17 PM
Sorry if I'm misreading this, but to me it says if the defender has used a compulsory road (he has), the invader's base edge must be one that the road joins (which would be the right edge shared by 4 & 3). It then says "If not (ie the defender didn't use a compulsory road)..." which doesn't apply because the defender DID use a compulsory road. So the following section about the invader being able to choose any edge except that opposite a waterway technically doesn't apply. So the invader gets the 4/3 right edge as his base edge.

What am I missing? Something obvious probably...

El' Jocko
12-15-2011, 08:14 PM
Sorry if I'm misreading this, but to me it says if the defender has used a compulsory road (he has), the invader's base edge must be one that the road joins (which would be the right edge shared by 4 & 3). It then says "If not (ie the defender didn't use a compulsory road)..." which doesn't apply because the defender DID use a compulsory road. So the following section about the invader being able to choose any edge except that opposite a waterway technically doesn't apply. So the invader gets the 4/3 right edge as his base edge.

What am I missing? Something obvious probably...

I think you've got it right. The compulsory road negates the waterway requirement.

See, a reply! You're not entirely invisible. :up

snowcat
12-15-2011, 08:16 PM
Praise the Lord! :2up

larryessick
12-15-2011, 08:40 PM
We just tried placing a river from one quarter to an other than opposite edge.

We concluded that to do so we would need to run in an L shape in order to meet the requirement to be 4BW from the edge except where we enter and exit.

After the fact I'm not so sure that is correct, only that for the duration of the first quarter being traversed that the river must be 4BW from the non-entry edge.

Martyn
12-16-2011, 05:26 AM
Sorry if I'm misreading this, but to me it says if the defender has used a compulsory road (he has), the invader's base edge must be one that the road joins (which would be the right edge shared by 4 & 3). It then says "If not (ie the defender didn't use a compulsory road)..." which doesn't apply because the defender DID use a compulsory road. So the following section about the invader being able to choose any edge except that opposite a waterway technically doesn't apply. So the invader gets the 4/3 right edge as his base edge.

What am I missing? Something obvious probably...

On numerous rereadings of this section I think you are probably right. As long as you accept that the WW exception only applies when the Compulsory Rd is not used, which appears to be the case. Is it clear enough to avoid arguement? or would it benefit from additional clarification.

Martyn
12-16-2011, 05:35 AM
We just tried placing a river from one quarter to an other than opposite edge.

We concluded that to do so we would need to run in an L shape in order to meet the requirement to be 4BW from the edge except where we enter and exit.

Provided it does not break the total length is not "longer than 1 times distance between its ends" requirement. Which should be OK if the river does not meander.

After the fact I'm not so sure that is correct, only that for the duration of the first quarter being traversed that the river must be 4BW from the non-entry edge.

"and must not go within 400 paces of any battlefield edges except those on which it starts or ends" so the L shape must keep 400 paces from the two edges it runs parallel to.

snowcat
12-16-2011, 07:10 AM
On numerous rereadings of this section I think you are probably right. As long as you accept that the WW exception only applies when the Compulsory Rd is not used, which appears to be the case. Is it clear enough to avoid arguement? or would it benefit from additional clarification.


To me it seemed clear enough, but if a lot of others think it's misleading, then some alternative wording might be better.

larryessick
12-16-2011, 08:57 AM
"and must not go within 400 paces of any battlefield edges except those on which it starts or ends" so the L shape must keep 400 paces from the two edges it runs parallel to.

The starts and ends bit.

The edges of the display are the edges of the board, top is one edge, left another, etc.

If river is represented by R then the following is legal, isn't it?

R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
R
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

larryessick
12-16-2011, 09:05 AM
In the above, the river enters on the bottom edge in the bottom left quarter and then turns immediately to the left running along the side of the board, it isn't 4BW from the edge but the edge is excepted from this because it is the edge on which the river enters.

When the river reaches the left board edge it turns upward, leaving the bottom left corner of the board and entering the upper left quarter, all the while running along the edge of the board. At some point the river takes a turn to the left and exists the board along the left board edge in the upper left quarter. The river does not need to stay 4BW from the left edge because that edge is also excepted as it is the edge on which the river exits.

In fact, if the river exited out both the left and top board edges by going out at the corner where the two met, it could run within 4BW of 3 of the 4 board edges. And, by controlling the entry point of the river it is possible to do all of that without exceeding the 1.5 length restriction.

Martyn
12-16-2011, 10:28 AM
In the above, the river enters on the bottom edge in the bottom left quarter and then turns immediately to the left running along the side of the board, it isn't 4BW from the edge but the edge is excepted from this because it is the edge on which the river enters.

When the river reaches the left board edge it turns upward, leaving the bottom left corner of the board and entering the upper left quarter, all the while running along the edge of the board. At some point the river takes a turn to the left and exists the board along the left board edge in the upper left quarter. The river does not need to stay 4BW from the left edge because that edge is also excepted as it is the edge on which the river exits.

Yes, technically you can do this (except I assume you mean bottom right quarter at the start of your description). My question is why? This does not appear to give any great tactical advantage except making a river irrelevant as a piece of terrain. So if anybody wants to go to such extremes, let them.

In fact, if the river exited out both the left and top board edges by going out at the corner where the two met, it could run within 4BW of 3 of the 4 board edges. And, by controlling the entry point of the river it is possible to do all of that without exceeding the 1.5 length restriction.

The river has to run from one edge to a different edge. I would take that as disqualifying a corner entry/exit as that would be two edges

larryessick
12-16-2011, 01:30 PM
Yes, technically you can do this (except I assume you mean bottom right quarter at the start of your description). My question is why? This does not appear to give any great tactical advantage except making a river irrelevant as a piece of terrain. So if anybody wants to go to such extremes, let them.

The river has to run from one edge to a different edge. I would take that as disqualifying a corner entry/exit as that would be two edges

Well, I'm not sure that I would want to do something like I've described but it is at this moment just an intellectual bit trying to understand the rule. After that I'll try to figure out how to exploit it. My thinking is that if I can figure out how to exploit a rule then someone else already has, hours/days/weeks/months earlier.

I hadn't meant lower right but that is another possibility. I think river length starts to be a limiting factor. But it does open some interesting possibilities.

The "a" side is part of a separate discussion on how the articles "a" and "an" are used and whether they mean "one" or mean "one or more" in any particular case. Exiting thru a corner, or even entering thru a corner, is one side on one river bank, it is one side on the other river bank, the two sides are different from one another but still each is a side.

This last bit is a bit of intentional twisting of the language to try and figure out consensus regarding the use of "a" and "an" as we read the rules. One good example would be the rules on second moves by groups of Wb.

Do they end when one and only one enemy is contacted? Or, can the group contact multiple enemy. The rule says "an element" -- so if "a" and "an" mean one then it is the former. If "a" and "an" mean one or more than it can be the latter.

Someone observed that these questions are a bit like dancing on the head of a pin. In some respects that is true. But it is best to find common agreement now I think rather than wait until later.

If "a" and "an" have different meanings in different places then maybe it is best to clarify which meaning they have by replacing with "one" and "one or more" throughout.

Martyn
12-16-2011, 01:41 PM
This last bit is a bit of intentional twisting of the language to try and figure out consensus regarding the use of "a" and "an" as we read the rules. One good example would be the rules on second moves by groups of Wb.

Do they end when one and only one enemy is contacted? Or, can the group contact multiple enemy. The rule says "an element" -- so if "a" and "an" mean one then it is the former. If "a" and "an" mean one or more than it can be the latter.

Someone observed that these questions are a bit like dancing on the head of a pin. In some respects that is true. But it is best to find common agreement now I think rather than wait until later.

If "a" and "an" have different meanings in different places then maybe it is best to clarify which meaning they have by replacing with "one" and "one or more" throughout.

I won't get involved in that particular discussion, I noted it was getting lively on the Yahoo group. However there is a potential for clarification if there is sufficent ambiguity. One aspect I had noticed was the fact that Wb second rank could be excluded from the second move, that certainly needs clarifying.

larryessick
12-16-2011, 01:58 PM
One aspect I had noticed was the fact that Wb second rank could be excluded from the second move, that certainly needs clarifying.

Well, I don't think so because I think the rule applies to a group and that the group as an entity just needs to qualify. I really think other efforts are in that realm of finding ways to exploit rules and those making the attempt are among those who are better at it than I. ;)

Pillager
12-25-2011, 06:46 PM
>Next question is this: Does "an adjacent quarter" in the bit about crossing from one to another mean 1 and only 1 quarter?
>

Yes. the word "an" is singular. He did not say "an adjacent quarter or quarters."

Pillager
12-25-2011, 06:49 PM
>Does this also mean that location of linear features is first determined by die roll and that this determines the starting quadrant?
>

Yes. "Placed" is distinct from "extends" (into an adjacent quadrant).

I think a more important question is whether the quad of placement must contain the majority of an area feature? Otherwise there is a lot of latitude; it effectively bars only the diagonal quad from containing almost all the piece.