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Martyn
12-14-2011, 07:22 PM
It is nice to see the El on El recoil interaction being clarified.

I have a query on the last paragraph "A recoiling or pushed back element starting with enemy in any front edge contact with its flank .. etc .. is destroyed."

For illustration, you have two elements in a column, the front one in combat to its front with a second enemy element in contact with its flank, which also is in contact with the flank of the second element of the column. Now if the front element is beaten it is destroyed due to the flank contact. The rear element is not pushed back because the first element died so should that also be destroyed or does it survive?

I just think it would be better to be more specific rather than leave the wording open to interpretation, and therefore endless posts arguing each view point.

kontos
12-14-2011, 08:03 PM
It is nice to see the El on El recoil interaction being clarified.

I have a query on the last paragraph "A recoiling or pushed back element starting with enemy in any front edge contact with its flank .. etc .. is destroyed."

For illustration, you have two elements in a column, the front one in combat to its front with a second enemy element in contact with its flank, which also is in contact with the flank of the second element of the column. Now if the front element is beaten it is destroyed due to the flank contact. The rear element is not pushed back because the first element died so should that also be destroyed or does it survive?

I just think it would be better to be more specific rather than leave the wording open to interpretation, and therefore endless posts arguing each view point.

I agree. Mine would be an "interpretation" only.

larryessick
12-15-2011, 12:49 AM
My understanding in all DB rules is that if an element doesn't start its recoil then it doesn't push back. As with others, this is only an interp as far as I can tell.

Doug
12-15-2011, 02:45 AM
I am generally unhappy about the push-back rules. I think it is an area that needs significant clarification or change.

Xavi
12-15-2011, 03:29 AM
Since pushbacks have not changed much since 2.2 (except that now Bd and Pk pursue other foot even if they do not QK it) I am a little bit puzzled about all this pushback heat and hate. I see the actual scrum phase as being more or less the same. Where I see the game having changed massively is in the movement phase.

Dunno. JUst voicing my puzzlement, I guess.


Xavi

Martyn
12-15-2011, 08:37 AM
Since pushbacks have not changed much since 2.2 (except that now Bd and Pk pursue other foot even if they do not QK it) I am a little bit puzzled about all this pushback heat and hate. I see the actual scrum phase as being more or less the same. Where I see the game having changed massively is in the movement phase.

Dunno. JUst voicing my puzzlement, I guess.


Xavi

I started this thread to collate queries on the Recoiling section of the rules to assist in gathering feedback for onward transmission to PB.

It is not a matter of agreement or disagreement with the rule but making sure it is clear and unambiguous.

I was going to start a thread on each section of the rules to collate comments, I have read through the rules a few times picking up several parts that are not clear so everyone can chip in as appropriate.

Doug
12-15-2011, 08:44 AM
The key difference as I read it, is that it used to be the case that the element pushing back was the one that suffered adverse effects, whereas now, it is the element that is pushed back that does so.

Bobgnar
12-15-2011, 07:11 PM
Ditto to Doug. There are many changes in what happens in a recoil, such as elements moving into misaligned friends not being destroyed, but if there is no move, there is a loss.

If recoiling element with one aligned behind that starts in contact with misaligned behind, who all are destroyed -- recoiler or pushed back one. Need a term for pushed back element -- "pushee"

Now there is mixed situations for recoiler and pushee

I think Doug added this to his register of problems/.

Si2
12-15-2011, 07:22 PM
'push back' has never been defined.
Assumption is that it is pressure on a front edge that moves the element directly to it's own rear....
It's been undefined since at least March 1990... as it's in the yellow jacket rule book.

Si

Pillager
12-25-2011, 07:59 PM
It is nice to see the El on El recoil interaction being clarified.

I have a query on the last paragraph "A recoiling or pushed back element starting with enemy in any front edge contact with its flank .. etc .. is destroyed."

For illustration, you have two elements in a column, the front one in combat to its front with a second enemy element in contact with its flank, which also is in contact with the flank of the second element of the column. Now if the front element is beaten it is destroyed due to the flank contact. The rear element is not pushed back because the first element died so should that also be destroyed or does it survive?

I just think it would be better to be more specific rather than leave the wording open to interpretation, and therefore endless posts arguing each view point.

How is this not clear, once you format it better ???

The second rank unit is not mentioned at all -- so there is no effect upon it. Why do you expect there to be some effect? Its just like the DBMM rule.

DRAFT PG 12

A recoiling element that

1)meets impassable terrain, the near bank of a river it cannot cross, friends it cannot pass through or push back, or any BUA or camp ends its move there.

2) cannot start its recoil because already in contact with any of these is destroyed. An element already in a river recoils normally.


3) A recoiling or pushed back element starting with enemy in any front edge contact with its flank, rear or rear corner, or that contacts an enemy with its rear edge or rear corner, or that is in a BUA or camp, is destroyed.

If an enemy element is contacted on its rear edge by a recoiling or pushed-back element’s rear edge or rear corner, or on a side edge by its rear corner, or on a rear corner by its rear edge, both elements are destroyed.