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View Full Version : Looking forward to 3.0, when's the release date?


neldoreth
08-25-2011, 03:42 PM
Just wanted to actually see how much things are going to change, and was wondering if there is a prospective date on the release of 3.0 yet?

Thanks
Joe

David Constable
08-25-2011, 04:52 PM
Just wanted to actually see how much things are going to change, and was wondering if there is a prospective date on the release of 3.0 yet?

Thanks
Joe

October 2011 is still the best bet, probably end of the month.

David Constable

pawsBill
08-25-2011, 05:08 PM
October 2011 is still the best bet, probably end of the month.

David Constable

Aparently, Phil has said there may be a little more to do and the original publication target (Fall In?) might be missed.

Rich Gause
08-25-2011, 06:01 PM
Aparently, Phil has said there may be a little more to do and the original publication target (Fall In?) might be missed.

That is good news anyway.

David Constable
08-25-2011, 06:47 PM
Aparently, Phil has said there may be a little more to do and the original publication target (Fall In?) might be missed.

Thanks Bill, but still before Christmas 2011 is a good bet.
Fall In and the English Open by the way, he mentioned that when he used his Greek? army at the English Open.

David Constable

kontos
08-25-2011, 07:21 PM
Thanks Bill, but still before Christmas 2011 is a good bet.
Fall In and the English Open by the way, he mentioned that when he used his Greek? army at the English Open.

David Constable

Well if Phil is actually playing a DBA army, you can expect rule's changes dependent on the outcome of his game. :eek

Bob Santamaria
08-25-2011, 07:29 PM
Well if Phil is actually playing a DBA army, you can expect rule's changes dependent on the outcome of his game. :eek

Maybe we should encourage him to play the game with great frequency then, and the new edition will never arrive.

kontos
08-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Maybe we should encourage him to play the game with great frequency then, and the new edition will never arrive.

Or he'll actually understand the game and reassess 3.0? One can hope. :up

Bob Santamaria
08-25-2011, 07:44 PM
Or he'll actually understand the game and reassess 3.0? One can hope. :up

I am not really feeling that pessimistic. The process totally sucks, but there are a few good concepts being discussed, including larger boards, BW multiple movement and agnosticism as to the number of figures on a base for different variants of the same troop type. I am totally reserving judgment.

Adrian

kontos
08-25-2011, 09:06 PM
I am totally reserving judgment.

Adrian

As you should. There is no reason to become like those of us who didn't want 3.0 to change this much. You may like it. I know I already don't and am very disappointed in our voices not being heard; being the neglected stepchild in the DBMM family; and the process (or lack thereof) in developing this version to date. But that's just me. :up

David Constable
08-26-2011, 04:06 AM
Well if Phil is actually playing a DBA army, you can expect rule's changes dependent on the outcome of his game. :eek

Phil has a couple, Sue uses her Ancient British, but she did in 25mm years ago, they will both remember games they have played.

If Phil remembers his disasters then sell your Classical Indian armies now, and blame it on (from memory so Bill please correct me) a 7-0 loss with Greek hoplites? verses Scott Russell and his Classical Indian at the English Open.

David Constable

Menacus Secundus
08-26-2011, 05:07 AM
Aparently, Phil has said there may be a little more to do and the original publication target (Fall In?) might be missed.

Excellent. I am not suggesting this was the intention, but it adds a further layer of uncertainty to the current uncertainty about what changes v3 will bring; and makes me even less inclined to start painting any new armies. (Heck! It has taken me nearly 2 months to finish the mounted elements of the Beja army I bought in April to use at a competition at the start of July.) Oh well! I guess it gives me even more time to rebase my 20 year old ECW army for use with a completely different set of rules.

"It will all be over by Christmas." Now where have I heard that before?

David Constable
08-26-2011, 09:47 AM
PART CUT

"It will all be over by Christmas." Now where have I heard that before?

Unless he decides to do a re-write, is that why you did not specify a year.

David Constable

neldoreth
08-28-2011, 09:51 PM
Thanks for the info guys! Appreciated.

I've started to look at it as a completely new game. I'm always open to learning a new game if others are into it, so I don't dread it all that much anymore. I just don't enjoy the limbo time of development.

Thanks
n.

peleset
08-28-2011, 10:23 PM
My one concern, having lived through the demise of DBM, is the splintering of a vibrant community into increasingly smaller groups.

Bobgnar
08-28-2011, 10:39 PM
If it is not released by Fall In then I will do a play testing/ focus group session of the near final draft at Fall in. I have tentative permission. Of course that could change :)

David Constable
08-29-2011, 04:24 AM
If it is not released by Fall In then I will do a play testing/ focus group session of the near final draft at Fall in. I have tentative permission. Of course that could change :)

I am sure the group would like to know how you get on.

Both the positive and negative, forwarned etc.

David Constable

Jeff
08-29-2011, 08:26 AM
If it is not released by Fall In then I will do a play testing/ focus group session of the near final draft at Fall in. I have tentative permission. Of course that could change :)

Bob, From what I can tell the schedule for Fall-in is packed. I hear that lunch might be available. ;)

david kuijt
08-29-2011, 08:39 AM
From what I can tell the schedule for Fall-in is packed. I hear that lunch might be available. ;)

If you eat quickly, that is.

But seriously, Sunday is open.

Jeff
08-29-2011, 02:55 PM
If you eat quickly, that is.

But seriously, Sunday is open.

Soooooo, take out?

Rong
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
Chinese of course- oops!!:silly

Bobgnar
08-29-2011, 04:53 PM
Bob, From what I can tell the schedule for Fall-in is packed. I hear that lunch might be available. ;)

I have a slot reserved for Friday evening and Sunday morning. The latter is supposed to be HOTT but DBA takes precedence.

David's suggestion of Sunday is good too, if I can stay over, if anyone stays over :}

Phil and Sue have a room reserved so they are coming. Hope to get a Q and A. Would focus not on "why" but "what is meant."

APHooper
08-30-2011, 03:12 PM
My one concern, having lived through the demise of DBM, is the splintering of a vibrant community into increasingly smaller groups.

I think that's up to us. I think that there are some signs that DBA 2.2 may continue to be practiced well after the publication of 3.0. I think 3.0 will be a very different game, with fundamental changes to the mechanics of movement, and that many players of 2.2 will not care for it. I think we are very likely to end up playing both versions, and making accomodations where necessary to let each other play as we wish. I see a future where Fanaticus has material devoted to all three major editions, but that 2.2 will retain a following far more robust than 1.0, if only because the lists will be changing less this time around.

As I have said in other threads, I'm just going to keep playing DBA 2.2, and providing other people with opportunities to play 2.2, and treat 3.0 as an academic issue for the immediate future.

Andy Hooper
Bacteria Valley

Wargaming is a Cooperative Pastime

hammurabi70
09-02-2011, 04:18 AM
My one concern, having lived through the demise of DBM, is the splintering of a vibrant community into increasingly smaller groups.

When was this? Many players I know use DBM, DBMMM and FOG according to 'whim'. FOG seems more popular for the moment but the tide will, no doubt, change. IMPETUS is beginning to make a showing.

pawsBill
09-06-2011, 06:24 AM
My one concern, having lived through the demise of DBM, is the splintering of a vibrant community into increasingly smaller groups.

Things are different with DBA. There is no demise of DBA, like there was with DBM.

DBA is still vibrant and is being updated. DBM had become stagnant and was replaced. Unfortunately, the authors of DBM each wrote (or became involved with the writing of) a different replacement, each of which catered to what different groups wanted. There is no similar fracturing of DBA's authorship so there are not alternative replacements.

winterbadger
09-06-2011, 11:31 AM
Things are different with DBA. There is no demise of DBA, like there was with DBM.

DBA is still vibrant and is being updated. DBM had become stagnant and was replaced. Unfortunately, the authors of DBM each wrote (or became involved with the writing of) a different replacement, each of which catered to what different groups wanted. There is no similar fracturing of DBA's authorship so there are not alternative replacements.

I think it is premature to say this, or to assert that only the creation of competing variants by original authors will cause the splintering of the DBA community.

I would actually be very surprised if the DBA community did not splinter after the publication of 3.0. Unless the new edition is regarded as a complete flop or universally acclaimed, some players are going to stick with 2.2 while others play 3.0, and others give up and look for some other rules entirely, like Impetus.

If Phil had been willing to update 2.2, clarify obscure areas, tweak areas that needed tweaking, etc., there is little doubt in my mind that--even if everyone was not happy with all the changes--everyone, or almost everyone, would have adopted the new version.

But instead, he chose to create a new, substantially different edition that changes important structural relationships in the game. It's not a whole, new game, but it certainly is a very different game. And I think the result is that some people will adopt it and some will not.

So, by contrast, where you see no splintering, I see almost inevitable splintering. Even if a majority of players adopt 3.0, I think a substantial minority will not and will either continue to play 2.x or just stop playing DBA altogether. I think that's a shame, and I think it's an eventuality that could have been avoided.

David Constable
09-06-2011, 01:33 PM
I think it is premature to say this, or to assert that only the creation of competing variants by original authors will cause the splintering of the DBA community.

I would actually be very surprised if the DBA community did not splinter after the publication of 3.0. Unless the new edition is regarded as a complete flop or universally acclaimed, some players are going to stick with 2.2 while others play 3.0, and others give up and look for some other rules entirely, like Impetus.

If Phil had been willing to update 2.2, clarify obscure areas, tweak areas that needed tweaking, etc., there is little doubt in my mind that--even if everyone was not happy with all the changes--everyone, or almost everyone, would have adopted the new version.

But instead, he chose to create a new, substantially different edition that changes important structural relationships in the game. It's not a whole, new game, but it certainly is a very different game. And I think the result is that some people will adopt it and some will not.

So, by contrast, where you see no splintering, I see almost inevitable splintering. Even if a majority of players adopt 3.0, I think a substantial minority will not and will either continue to play 2.x or just stop playing DBA altogether. I think that's a shame, and I think it's an eventuality that could have been avoided.

I would have to agree, some will play the new version regardless, some might play both, some will stick with 2.2.

Eventually it will sort itself out, probably by country, but we will end up with three types of DBA player, which is the majority in any country is another matter. And that is the shame about it.

David Constable

Kingo
09-06-2011, 02:07 PM
When does DBA 3 go on sale?

neldoreth
09-06-2011, 03:05 PM
When does DBA 3 go on sale?

Word on the street is mid October 2011 at the earliest. I'm still trying to find the motivation to get on with my Skythia-Parthia DBA 2.2 morph (http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=scythia&thumbs=1). We'll see how it shakes out I guess.

Thanks,
n.

Kingo
09-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Well I'm determined not to play any 2.2 untill I play some 3, so I'll just keep playing Trafalgar. :D

Gregorius
09-06-2011, 07:15 PM
Word on the street is mid October 2011 at the earliest. I'm still trying to find the motivation to get on with my Skythia-Parthia DBA 2.2 morph (http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=scythia&thumbs=1). We'll see how it shakes out I guess.

Thanks,
n.

Hi Neldoreth,

Nice to see examples of your painting again after such a long time. As usual, very pretty inded.

Cheers,

Bobgnar
09-06-2011, 10:06 PM
Now on to Plan B. Not available until after Fall In. That is Nov 1. I plan to have some play testing/focus groups at Fall in so hopefully any comments would be allowed time to filter in. Mid-Nov, maybe.

Word on the street is mid October 2011 at the earliest. I'm still trying to find the motivation to get on with my Skythia-Parthia DBA 2.2 morph (http://www.hourofwolves.org/?view=armies&which=scythia&thumbs=1). We'll see how it shakes out I guess.

Thanks,
n.

peleset
09-06-2011, 10:17 PM
There's still time to pass the hat round for a Hitman :)

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_5/Hitman.jpg

By the way, that was a joke. So don't rat me out to the authorities:eek.

David Constable
09-07-2011, 04:54 AM
:2upThere's still time to pass the hat round for a Hitman :)

PICTURE REMOVED

By the way, that was a joke. So don't rat me out to the authorities:eek.

:2up
We will not.
Start a new charity "Kill Barker", would make a good film.
You will get a lot of subscriptions.

David Constable

elliesdad
09-07-2011, 08:11 AM
:2up

:2up
We will not.
Start a new charity "Kill Barker", would make a good film.
You will get a lot of subscriptions.

David Constable

Aaaarghhhh. But Barker is my surname too...
Hopefully you can make your charity a tad more specific.

Geoff - "Elliesdad"

ferrency
09-07-2011, 09:28 AM
I would have to agree, some will play the new version regardless, some might play both, some will stick with 2.2.

Eventually it will sort itself out, probably by country, but we will end up with three types of DBA player, which is the majority in any country is another matter. And that is the shame about it.

How is this not splintering of the community?

I don't think DBA 3 will splinter the community. I think it already has. The only reason we're all playing the same game right now is because 3 hasn't been released yet.

Alan

david kuijt
09-07-2011, 11:10 AM
How is this not splintering of the community?

I don't think DBA 3 will splinter the community. I think it already has. The only reason we're all playing the same game right now is because 3 hasn't been released yet.



I would read from the Red Book. At Historicon 2011, Aragorn encouraged the Fanatici:

"Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, NASAMW, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of DBA fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of woe, and shattered shields, when the Age of Men comes crashing down and DBA 3.0 is released; but it is not this day! This day, we play DBA!"

winterbadger
09-07-2011, 11:44 AM
I would read from the Red Book. At Historicon 2011, Aragorn encouraged the Fanatici:

I always thought you reminded me of Aragorn, DK. Something about your being one of the tall Men of the North next to us hobbits. :up

Or maybe the bit about how "a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler." :D

El' Jocko
09-07-2011, 11:44 AM
I would read from the Red Book. At Historicon 2011, Aragorn encouraged the Fanatici:

"Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, NASAMW, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of DBA fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of woe, and shattered shields, when the Age of Men comes crashing down and DBA 3.0 is released; but it is not this day! This day, we play DBA!"

Aragorn only said that in the movie version of Historicon 2011. In the book there was no speech. Though Gandalf did chastise the Mouth of Barker.

- Jack

Redwilde
09-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Though the drums be booming deep in the chasm below, we will continue to write a new AAR in the Book of Mazarbul. For this is how the descendants of the stock of Balin play DBA.

Considering that he keeps hoping to have the release ready for one of the HMGS East cons, Cold Wars seems the next likely target if it's not done by Fall In. One of the more fascinating aspects that keeps my fascinated morbid curiosity rivetted is the drive to unveil the new product here where he has constantly voiced the most disdain for the regional community and where DBMM was overwhelmingly abandoned.

Must get more popcorn. This could be Shakespearean in scope. Or Hammersteinian if we're really lucky. Or if the dice rolls are equal, then it might just be Fellinian.

David Constable
09-07-2011, 12:08 PM
Aaaarghhhh. But Barker is my surname too...
Hopefully you can make your charity a tad more specific.

Geoff - "Elliesdad"

No wonder you do not use your true name.
Bad luck, but we all have a cross to bear of some sort.

I think we can be more specific, but would it not be more fun to have an Inquisition, make all those with the name Barker prove they are not related.
All the people they beat might like to beat them with a weapon of torture, how about a copy of DBA3.

David Constable

jcpotn
09-07-2011, 12:10 PM
I would read from the Red Book. At Historicon 2011, Aragorn encouraged the Fanatici:

"Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, NASAMW, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of DBA fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of woe, and shattered shields, when the Age of Men comes crashing down and DBA 3.0 is released; but it is not this day! This day, we play DBA!"

DK,
Wouldn't it read better to add 2.2 to the last sentence? :)
"...This day, we play DBA 2.2!"

Jeff

El' Jocko
09-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Or if the dice rolls are equal, then it might just be Fellinian.

Perhaps DBA 3.0 will give us a way to roll 8 PIPs.

- Jack

winterbadger
09-07-2011, 12:22 PM
Perhaps DBA 3.0 will give us a way to roll 8 PIPs.

- Jack

Maybe. Or maybe it will more closely resemble resemble Il bidone or I clowns. :silly

Bobgnar
09-07-2011, 12:25 PM
This is the most absurd thing I have yet read about DBA. How can something that is not even yet published be "splintering" the community. There are only rumors of things, and drafts of things, and rants on things but nothing final. 1.1 did not splinter the community, 2.0 did not either, nor did 2.2. There were as many big changes in each of those as are being suggested for 3.0.

Once the book is out, then we can see what is liked or not liked. Then people can decide to play the new game, the old game or something else. Do note that there was an article in recent Battlegames arguing that 1.1 is the best version and 2.0 ruined the game. Everyone to his own taste.

Quasimodo


How is this not splintering of the community?

I don't think DBA 3 will splinter the community. I think it already has. The only reason we're all playing the same game right now is because 3 hasn't been released yet.

Alan

david kuijt
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Aragorn only said that in the movie version of Historicon 2011. In the book there was no speech. Though Gandalf did chastise the Mouth of Barker.


The movie version was better; Aragorn chopped his head off!

But since Bob often plays the Mouth of Barker at Historicon, and I like Bob, maybe chastisement is more appropriate.

miros
09-07-2011, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Redwilde;130634]
One of the more fascinating aspects that keeps my fascinated morbid curiosity rivetted is the drive to unveil the new product here where he has constantly voiced the most disdain for the regional community and where DBMM was overwhelmingly abandoned. QUOTE]

I have a mental image of him waiting for the DBMM players at one of the HGMS-East cons and sitting at a table by himself.

winterbadger
09-07-2011, 02:51 PM
This is the most absurd thing I have yet read about DBA. How can something that is not even yet published be "splintering" the community.

Well, to take their opponents' most extreme characterisations of them, there are already two factions: those who are rpepared to criticise something they haven't seen yet based on the wildest kind of hearsay, and those who will defend to the death whatever flows from PB's pen as if it were Holy Writ, even if it's patently ridiculous and unplayable. Maybe those are not entirely accurate descriptions :rolleyes but the atmos is pretty riven, and no one but the playtesters (and the playtesters' wives, and the playtesters' families, and the playtesters' tennis partners, and some chap named Bernard one of the playtesters bumped into in the lift) have seen the new rules.

Just imagine what's going to happen when the other five DBA players on the planet see 3.0!!! :rotfl

ferrency
09-07-2011, 03:15 PM
This is the most absurd thing I have yet read about DBA.

Whether DBA 3 exists or not, whether it makes sense or not, and whether you like it or not, people have been taking sides: pro-3, anti-3.

Some have stated they'll never play 3, some have said they'll play 3 and never look back. At least a few players have declared they're quitting DBA altogether.

As you have pointed out, there has been plenty of anti-Phil venom, but there has also been more than enough evangelizing on his behalf.

As with most areas of contention, neither side is letting the complete lack of facts get in the way of their strongly held beliefs, and nobody seems willing to change their mind despite this lack of evidence.

For weeks, Fanaticus was a dead zone, with few people willing to take on new projects for fear of what DBA 3 might do to them. Those who did show up mainly fed fuel to the DBA 3 debate.

Fanaticus is the community I am talking about, and compared to the constructive discussions we had here last year, it has been effectively broken by DBA 3 discussion.

Luckily, I'm seeing a lot more constructive discussion here in the last week or so. I'm sorry I'm writing this post instead of adding to it.

In the end, it depends on where you draw the line when deciding whether the community has been splintered or not. If you hold that "unless 100% of current players still play DBA, we have splintered," then clearly the community has splintered. If you think "unless nobody plays DBA, we have not splintered" then we will likely never splinter. The better place to draw the line is somewhere between those extremes.

Where I draw the line, we've already crossed it; but that doesn't mean there's no hope. It only means that based on the evidence I see regarding the community (not the rules), I should get used to the idea that I'm not going to be playing DBA against all the same opponents I'm used to playing against.

In the end, I hope I'm wrong. I hope people will have open minds and be willing to change their opinion when all of the real options are available to them. But the community will be worse off if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is just fine and that we all share the same opinions about DBA 3.

So instead of discussing how broken DBA 3 may or may not be: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle the inevitable result that not everyone agrees whether DBA 3 is worth playing or not?

Alan

David Constable
09-07-2011, 03:29 PM
LARGE PART CUT

So instead of discussing how broken DBA 3 may or may not be: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle the inevitable result that not everyone agrees whether DBA 3 is worth playing or not?

Alan

The problem is going to be very local at club level, but also nationally.

At club level you might get two players using DBA2.2 and two playing DBA3.

Now what happens to competitions nationally, a lot might not be viable with only half the players, speaking purely from a U.K. point of view.

David Constable

Rich Gause
09-07-2011, 03:47 PM
Whether DBA 3 exists or not, whether it makes sense or not, and whether you like it or not, people have been taking sides: pro-3, anti-3.

Some have stated they'll never play 3, some have said they'll play 3 and never look back. At least a few players have declared they're quitting DBA altogether.

As you have pointed out, there has been plenty of anti-Phil venom, but there has also been more than enough evangelizing on his behalf.

As with most areas of contention, neither side is letting the complete lack of facts get in the way of their strongly held beliefs, and nobody seems willing to change their mind despite this lack of evidence.

For weeks, Fanaticus was a dead zone, with few people willing to take on new projects for fear of what DBA 3 might do to them. Those who did show up mainly fed fuel to the DBA 3 debate.

Fanaticus is the community I am talking about, and compared to the constructive discussions we had here last year, it has been effectively broken by DBA 3 discussion.

Luckily, I'm seeing a lot more constructive discussion here in the last week or so. I'm sorry I'm writing this post instead of adding to it.

In the end, it depends on where you draw the line when deciding whether the community has been splintered or not. If you hold that "unless 100% of current players still play DBA, we have splintered," then clearly the community has splintered. If you think "unless nobody plays DBA, we have not splintered" then we will likely never splinter. The better place to draw the line is somewhere between those extremes.

Where I draw the line, we've already crossed it; but that doesn't mean there's no hope. It only means that based on the evidence I see regarding the community (not the rules), I should get used to the idea that I'm not going to be playing DBA against all the same opponents I'm used to playing against.

In the end, I hope I'm wrong. I hope people will have open minds and be willing to change their opinion when all of the real options are available to them. But the community will be worse off if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is just fine and that we all share the same opinions about DBA 3.

So instead of discussing how broken DBA 3 may or may not be: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle the inevitable result that not everyone agrees whether DBA 3 is worth playing or not?

Alan

Wait and see how 3.0 turns out. If it changes too much and doesn't fix enough silly things from 2.2 to make the changes worthwhile then make a rules variant that is better than 2.2 and better than 3.0 that is everthing that DBA should be and distribute it free on the internet. Make army lists for it that are flexible enough to allow 2.2 or 3.0 army lists. Most everybody will be willing to play it at least some of the time and it will gradually become the defacto standard DBA game.

Bobgnar
09-07-2011, 05:08 PM
Indeed, people are splintering the DBA community, not the Rules. People may be against any change, Luddites or for change, Hunchbacks, as DK calls them.

Why discuss anything about about what will happen until after the new game is published. About as useful as discussing whether DBA 1.1 or DBA 2.2 is worth playing or not. How do those two compare, which is better? That is something that can be discussed, based on facts.

I get tired of sports casters and political pundits discussing what may happen instead of waiting for something to happen. Hypothetical commentary is a waste of time. I would like to see suggestions for change, and suggestion for not to change.

Why does any one need to handle the "inevitable result", who needs to handle it. Each person is responsible for his own gaming interests.

Quasimodo

Whether DBA 3 exists or not, whether it makes sense or not, and whether you like it or not, people have been taking sides: pro-3, anti-3.

snip;

So instead of discussing how broken DBA 3 may or may not be: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle the inevitable result that not everyone agrees whether DBA 3 is worth playing or not?

Alan

winterbadger
09-07-2011, 05:17 PM
People may be against any change, Luddites or for change, Hunchbacks, as DK calls them.

Nothing like a little reductio ad absurdum to spice up the debate! :)

Why discuss anything about about what will happen until after the new game is published.

One might as well as why you are posting here then? Because you want to discuss the possibilities, the same as the rest of us. Unless, of course, you are simply seeking to stifle discussion entirely, and I'm sure that's not the case.

About as useful as discussing whether DBA 1.1 or DBA 2.2 is worth playing or not. How do those two compare, which is better? That is something that can be discussed, based on facts.

No, it can't, any more than whether 2.2 is better than (playtest versions of) 3.0. "Better" is purely a matter of opinion--there are no demonstrable facts to be cited.

I get tired of sports casters and political pundits discussing what may happen instead of waiting for something to happen. Hypothetical commentary is a waste of time.

Simple answer for that, Bob. Turn off the sound and just watch the game. :D

I would like to see suggestions for change, and suggestion for not to change.

I think there have been plenty of discussions of what people would like to see added to and subtracted from the various playtest versions. I'm sure there will be discussions like that when the rules are finally published. This is a different sort of discussion.

Why does any one need to handle the "inevitable result", who needs to handle it. Each person is responsible for his own gaming interests.

But we are also members of a community of gamers, and we all have concerns about that community (well, most of us do, I think). If that topic of discussion isn't of interest to you, just pass it by.

david kuijt
09-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Indeed, people are splintering the DBA community, not the Rules. People may be against any change, Luddites or for change, Hunchbacks, as DK calls them.
[...]
Quasimodo

First, I'd point out that Quasimodo is a bell-ringer in Notre Dame Cathedral, not a Lab Assistant for Dr. Frankenstein -- if you want to be a Lab Assistant, you should name yourself Igor, not Quasimodo.

Second, the metaphor in my sig is not to be taken as an allegory of Phil's Playtest Process. I'm sorry you took it that way; that's not how I intended it.

Third, the characterization that Hunchbacks are for Change is one I didn't make (although I'm sure I could make fun of it; it is screaming to be the punchline of a joke...)

And finally, when you say "people are splintering the DBA community, not the Rules" that sounds like someone saying "Napalm doesn't kill people, People kill people." Which is true -- Napalm sitting quietly in barrels in a secure facility doesn't kill people. It is only when people put Napalm in bombs and drop them on unsuspecting innocent villages that Napalm kills people. And in this case, more relevantly, you could well claim that the Rules doesn't splinter the community, people splinter the community. Which is true, in a sense -- Phil writing the rules is the guy dropping the Napalm. And Phil interacting with the DBMM community in a way that offends and insults this community is dropping more Napalm.

So yes, I agree, the Rules haven't done any splintering (yet). Phil has, though. If there was a manual for "how to piss off your players when constructing a new edition," Phil wrote the book.

ferrency
09-07-2011, 07:33 PM
If there was a manual for "how to piss off your players when constructing a new edition," Phil wrote the book.

Luckily no one who read it could understand what it said.

Alan

kontos
09-07-2011, 08:02 PM
Luckily no one who read it could understand what it said.

Alan

Oh I disagree Alan. When Phil writes to piss off his player communities, it comes across "loud and clear"! :eek

peleset
09-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Luckily no one who read it could understand what it said.

Alan

Deadeye Alan, right on target!

http://www.dragonartz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Vector-Arrow-Bullseye-Target-Prev1-by-DragonArt.jpg

Lobotomy
09-07-2011, 09:21 PM
I always thought you reminded me of Aragorn, DK. Something about your being one of the tall Men of the North next to us hobbits. :up

Or maybe the bit about how "a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler." :D

Jan, we had agreed many a moon ago DK was Sauron. Keep up!! :silly

kontos
09-07-2011, 09:23 PM
Jan, we had agreed many a moon ago DK was Sauron. Keep up!! :silly

Watch it, Grimma Wormtongue. :D

Lobotomy
09-07-2011, 09:26 PM
So instead of discussing how broken DBA 3 may or may not be: Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle the inevitable result that not everyone agrees whether DBA 3 is worth playing or not?

Alan

I think this is premature. It will take the final version to tell. Even the Heretic has admitted that (right, DK?). :rolleyes

Lobotomy
09-07-2011, 09:30 PM
Watch it, Grimma Wormtongue. :D

Don't let "Precious" distract you, Gollum. :silly

kontos
09-07-2011, 09:46 PM
Don't let "Precious" distract you, Gollum. :silly

Lori will appreciate the compliment and the insult! :D

Redwilde
09-07-2011, 11:46 PM
Perhaps DBA 3.0 will give us a way to roll 8 PIPs.


When filming the grand debut, please remember to tape the all important director's note on the camera: "Ricordati che un film comico"
(Remember that this is a comic film)

ferrency
09-08-2011, 10:17 AM
I think this is premature. It will take the final version to tell. Even the Heretic has admitted that (right, DK?). :rolleyes

I agree that it takes the final version to find and fix problems with the rules. But I'm not talking about the rules.

Alan

Lobotomy
09-08-2011, 09:00 PM
I agree that it takes the final version to find and fix problems with the rules. But I'm not talking about the rules.

Alan

Well, that is what this is really all about, the rules. The rest of it is just dross. We have put up with the commentary from Phil for quite a long time and essentially ignored it, after grousing of course. We still play the rules so I submit it is true about the dross.

Doug
09-12-2011, 01:30 AM
In one of my previous incarnations I was a sociology researcher and as part of that specialised in textual and linguistic analysis. I found the quote below fascinating - let's just have a quick look shall we... ?

"Originally Posted by ferrency
Whether DBA 3 exists or not, whether it makes sense or not, and whether you like it or not, people have been taking sides: pro-3, anti-3. Some have stated they'll never play 3, some have said they'll play 3 and never look back. At least a few players have declared they're quitting DBA altogether."

So far so good, nothing too unbalanced here..

"As you have pointed out, there has been plenty of anti-Phil venom, but there has also been more than enough evangelizing on his behalf."

So here is the first example. Acknowledging venom, but then describing evangelising - as 'more than enough' - another observer might have said, 'the unjustified personal attacks have seen some come to Phil's defence'.

"As with most areas of contention, neither side is letting the complete lack of facts get in the way of their strongly held beliefs, and nobody seems willing to change their mind despite this lack of evidence."

Except those players like Bob and Andreas (and myself) who actually have the latest version. I would suggest we have quite enough facts thankyou.

"For weeks, Fanaticus was a dead zone, with few people willing to take on new projects for fear of what DBA 3 might do to them. Those who did show up mainly fed fuel to the DBA 3 debate.

Fanaticus is the community I am talking about, and compared to the constructive discussions we had here last year, it has been effectively broken by DBA 3 discussion."

Hmm.. that word 'broken' again.

Lobotomy
09-12-2011, 08:41 PM
In one of my previous incarnations I was a sociology researcher and as part of that specialised in textual and linguistic analysis. I found the quote below fascinating - let's just have a quick look shall we... ?

"Originally Posted by ferrency
Whether DBA 3 exists or not, whether it makes sense or not, and whether you like it or not, people have been taking sides: pro-3, anti-3. Some have stated they'll never play 3, some have said they'll play 3 and never look back. At least a few players have declared they're quitting DBA altogether."

So far so good, nothing too unbalanced here..

"As you have pointed out, there has been plenty of anti-Phil venom, but there has also been more than enough evangelizing on his behalf."

So here is the first example. Acknowledging venom, but then describing evangelising - as 'more than enough' - another observer might have said, 'the unjustified personal attacks have seen some come to Phil's defence'.

"As with most areas of contention, neither side is letting the complete lack of facts get in the way of their strongly held beliefs, and nobody seems willing to change their mind despite this lack of evidence."

Except those players like Bob and Andreas (and myself) who actually have the latest version. I would suggest we have quite enough facts thankyou.

"For weeks, Fanaticus was a dead zone, with few people willing to take on new projects for fear of what DBA 3 might do to them. Those who did show up mainly fed fuel to the DBA 3 debate.

Fanaticus is the community I am talking about, and compared to the constructive discussions we had here last year, it has been effectively broken by DBA 3 discussion."

Hmm.. that word 'broken' again.

I have always noticed that textual and linguistic analysis is effected by the biases of the analyst.

Bob Santamaria
09-12-2011, 09:31 PM
In one of my previous incarnations I was a sociology researcher and as part of that specialised in textual and linguistic analysis. I found the quote below fascinating - let's just have a quick look shall we... ?

".

I learnt everything I needed to know about sociologists from Malcolm Bradbury's "The History Man"

Doug
09-12-2011, 09:58 PM
I have always noticed that textual and linguistic analysis is effected by the biases of the analyst.

Do you seriously claim that both sides of this contention have equal access to the facts?

Doug
09-12-2011, 10:00 PM
I learnt everything I needed to know about sociologists from Malcolm Bradbury's "The History Man"

For some reason lawyers are always convinced, (usually correctly) that Sociologists are getting way more s*x than they are. This tends to make lawyers bitter and twisted about Sociologists.

Bob Santamaria
09-12-2011, 10:16 PM
For some reason lawyers are always convinced, (usually correctly) that Sociologists are getting way more s*x than they are. This tends to make lawyers bitter and twisted about Sociologists.

Ha ha - and no one is bitter and twisted about lawyers! I must say sociologists are barely on my radar. But I do really love the Bradbury novel. Have you read it?

Redwilde
09-12-2011, 10:48 PM
For some reason lawyers are always convinced, (usually correctly) that Sociologists are getting way more s*x than they are. This tends to make lawyers bitter and twisted about Sociologists.

Anthropologists are the easiest to pick up. "So, what's your kinship system?"

Doug
09-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Ha ha - and no one is bitter and twisted about lawyers! I must say sociologists are barely on my radar. But I do really love the Bradbury novel. Have you read it?

Yes, and there was also an excellent TV adaptation.

Bob Santamaria
09-12-2011, 11:58 PM
Yes, and there was also an excellent TV adaptation.

There you have the advantage - I haven't seen the TV version - though I did once have to write an essay on the novel

Lobotomy
09-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Do you seriously claim that both sides of this contention have equal access to the facts?

I think you may be surprised at who has the facts. You assume that many who find 3.0 "broken" may have more facts than you assume.

David Schlanger
09-13-2011, 10:11 PM
"As you have pointed out, there has been plenty of anti-Phil venom, but there has also been more than enough evangelizing on his behalf."

So here is the first example. Acknowledging venom, but then describing evangelising - as 'more than enough' - another observer might have said, 'the unjustified personal attacks have seen some come to Phil's defence'.



I think the other observer you mention would be better characterized as a Philaphile TM

DS

Doug
09-13-2011, 11:04 PM
I think you may be surprised at who has the facts. You assume that many who find 3.0 "broken" may have more facts than you assume.

Hmm.. what you write makes no sense. "I assume that many have more facts than I assume" - it's lucky you don't act as an editor, proofreader, or (heaven forfend) an wargames author.

If you are suggesting that 'illicit' copies of 3.0 drafts are being widely circulated, then that is very disappointing. All I do know for sure is who DOES have the facts/current draft, and is privy to all the email traffic.

And at the moment, Bob is doing a very good job of picking up ambiguities.

Gascap
09-13-2011, 11:42 PM
... It's lucky you don't act as an editor, proofreader, or (heaven forfend) an wargames author.


In one of my previous incarnations I was a sociology researcher and as part of that specialised in textual and linguistic analysis. I found the quote below fascinating - let's just have a quick look shall we... ?


That's two personal attacks in one thread on some of my local friends. You know, it's true - some of us anti-3.0 folks have made ad hominem attacks against Phil in expressing our frustrations with 3.0 and its development. But in defending Phil, some of you pro-3.0 folks have resorted to ad hominem attacks against fellow DBAers. Too bad really.

JM

Pillager
09-14-2011, 04:13 AM
????????? Release date ?????????

Africanus
09-14-2011, 04:39 AM
????????? Release date ?????????


WWE Fanaticus royal rumble or DBA 3.0?:silly

Menacus Secundus
09-14-2011, 05:51 AM
????????? Release date ?????????

Short answer "We don't really know".

Sue LB said that they were aiming for the end of October. There are indications are that this target will not be met, but this has not yet been confirmed.

Bobgnar
09-14-2011, 12:17 PM
Short answer "We don't really know".

Sue LB said that they were aiming for the end of October. There are indications are that this target will not be met, but this has not yet been confirmed.

This has been confirmed. The new book will not be ready in time for Fall In, which is the last week end of October. I have suggested some playtesting at that event with hopes results would be taken back for review. That might add a month to release.

Kingo
09-16-2011, 05:49 PM
Just wanted to actually see how much things are going to change, and was wondering if there is a prospective date on the release of 3.0 yet?

Thanks
Joe

Are we any closes to getting the release date?:eek, I want to run a comp at our club a couple of weeks after the new rules land in my mail box.

Kingo

winterbadger
09-16-2011, 06:01 PM
Are we any closes to getting the release date?

Well, according to Bob (and his dog) in the previous reply, the rules won't be done by the end of next month, and they may not be ready by the end of November. So I would not advise holding your breath.

I want to run a comp at our club a couple of weeks after the new rules land in my mail box.

You want to run a competition with the new rules? After people have barely had time to digest them and start getting used to any changes or attempt to get any clarifications of whatever new conundrums they contain? That seems... curious. :??? Like doing a long voyage with a ship that hasn't passed its sea trials.

Kingo
09-16-2011, 06:27 PM
Well, according to Bob (and his dog) in the previous reply, the rules won't be done by the end of next month, and they may not be ready by the end of November. So I would not advise holding your breath.



You want to run a competition with the new rules? After people have barely had time to digest them and start getting used to any changes or attempt to get any clarifications of whatever new conundrums they contain? That seems... curious. :??? Like doing a long voyage with a ship that hasn't passed its sea trials.

Yes I'm going to invite 7 smart friends and put on a BBQ lunch, I thought a review after each game (the bar will be open too, I have the key :D). This would be a quick crash course in the new rules. We have eight members who play DBA in our club. (Not sure how many could be classed as smart though lol)

DBA should be fun too remember. :D

winterbadger
09-16-2011, 06:33 PM
Yes I'm going to invite 7 smart friends and put on a BBQ lunch, I thought a review after each game (the bar will be open too, I have the key :D). This would be a quick crash course in the new rules. We have eight members who play DBA in our club. (Not sure how many could be classed as smart though lol)

Ah, OK, so less of a serious competition and more of an exploration. Now I understand. :cool

DBA should be fun too remember. :D

:up It should be mostly fun, otherwise why play?

Doug
09-16-2011, 07:06 PM
You want to run a competition with the new rules? After people have barely had time to digest them and start getting used to any changes or attempt to get any clarifications of whatever new conundrums they contain? That seems... curious. :??? Like doing a long voyage with a ship that hasn't passed its sea trials.

Well, you have to try it sometime, it isn't as if they will be hugely different. Between a few friends is a very good shakedown cruise.

winterbadger
09-16-2011, 08:51 PM
Well, you have to try it sometime, it isn't as if they will be hugely different. Between a few friends is a very good shakedown cruise.

Yes, but "between a few friends" isn't a common description of a competition.

Doug
09-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Yes, but "between a few friends" isn't a common description of a competition.

Actually, most of ours are. the 20+ players that regularly show up for Canberra Based comps are generally a convivial bunch and disagreements or misunderstandings are very rare.

Kingi is talking about 8 people.. for a small comp. It can be (and should be) very friendly. It's DBA, and we are not playing for sheep stations.

winterbadger
09-16-2011, 11:31 PM
Actually, most of ours are. the 20+ players that regularly show up for Canberra Based comps are generally a convivial bunch and disagreements or misunderstandings are very rare.

Kingi is talking about 8 people.. for a small comp. It can be (and should be) very friendly. It's DBA, and we are not playing for sheep stations.

Wow. There's really no topic on which you can't be argumentative or contradictory, is there? :rolleyes

Pillager
09-17-2011, 12:37 PM
Wow. There's really no topic on which you can't be argumentative or contradictory, is there? :rolleyes

Nor which sticks to the actual topic, apparently.

Doug
09-17-2011, 07:37 PM
Nor which sticks to the actual topic, apparently.

Well, I guess that makes me unique. I think a read of the topic to date will show it wasn't me that started talking about competitions.

peleset
09-18-2011, 01:44 AM
No good comes from a long thread.
After about fifty posts a big red button should appear allowing anyone to nuke the whole thread. Then if anyone really feels the need to continue beating a dead horse they can start a new thread.

El' Jocko
09-18-2011, 10:26 AM
No good comes from a long thread.
After about fifty posts a big red button should appear allowing anyone to nuke the whole thread. Then if anyone really feels the need to continue beating a dead horse they can start a new thread.

Speaking of off topic remarks... :)

I'd agree that this thread hasn't generated a lot of value, but there are some other long running threads that are quite good. Just look at "Who's Painting What?" That's one of the best and longest running threads on the forum!

- Jack

neldoreth
10-07-2011, 03:08 PM
It's generated a lot of value for me! Every time I use it to ask when the projected release date is for DBA 3.0, the community comes through! So, I'm assuming that the end of October date has slipped and we're headed into December? Anyone with release-date info, I'd appreciate an update!

Thanks
n.

winterbadger
10-07-2011, 03:09 PM
It's generated a lot of value for me! Every time I use it to ask when the projected release date is for DBA 3.0, the community comes through! So, I'm assuming that the end of October date has slipped and we're headed into December? Anyone with release-date info, I'd appreciate an update!

Thanks
n.

I'm betting we will see the first US presidential primaries before we see DBA 3.0. :silly

david kuijt
10-07-2011, 03:58 PM
It's generated a lot of value for me! Every time I use it to ask when the projected release date is for DBA 3.0, the community comes through! So, I'm assuming that the end of October date has slipped and we're headed into December? Anyone with release-date info, I'd appreciate an update!


End of October is quite possible, if Phil invents time travel.

Commentary is still ongoing. I've heard rumors of some critical discussion regarding whether "pale brown" should be the rules-mandated color for roads or not. (I kid you not! I heard it from someone who heard it from someone who wouldn't lie!)

If commentary were to end this day, this hour, this very instant, I'm guessing it would take at least three months for the rules to go through the publishing process before they were available commercially. Hell, it would take at least a month for the shipping from the printer to distributors.

Last I heard the army lists weren't done, and Phil was working on them, discarding or ignoring much of the work from before. That's likely to take at least another month. So the absolute earliest anyone could possibly expect the 3.0 final version would be Nov1 or more reasonably Dec1. Three months after that is Feb1 or March1. And that assumes that Phil is done Dec 1, which is probably optimistic.

All of which fits pretty well with what Jan said.

Doug
10-07-2011, 05:31 PM
I've heard rumors of some critical discussion regarding whether "pale brown" should be the rules-mandated color for roads or not. (I kid you not! I heard it from someone who heard it from someone who wouldn't lie!)

Ahem.. more accurately, someone asked whether the fact that because a colour for roads was mentioned in the rules, what would happen if someone objected to his roads as being the 'wrong' colour. This was quickly squashed as being irrelevant.

Details are still being worked out, like what happens when an element is contacted in a position where they don't have room to conform. Which is relevant.

The latest draft has only just been released and I haven't been through it in detail, but it is looking very nearly complete.

Jeff
10-07-2011, 06:14 PM
Ahem.. more accurately, someone asked whether the fact that because a colour for roads was mentioned in the rules, what would happen if someone objected to his roads as being the 'wrong' colour. This was quickly squashed as being irrelevant.

Details are still being worked out, like what happens when an element is contacted in a position where they don't have room to conform. Which is relevant.

The latest draft has only just been released and I haven't been through it in detail, but it is looking very nearly complete.

Sooooooo, when?

Doug
10-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Sooooooo, when?

The mysteries of the universe are hidden from me...

winterbadger
10-07-2011, 07:48 PM
The mysteries of the universe are hidden from me...

So, when Rick Perry is watching the balloons pouring down from the ceiling on him. :D

peleset
10-07-2011, 11:04 PM
@ Doug

It has long been customary that with an appropriate donative all can be revealed.

http://www.crystalinks.com/delphivapors.jpg

We just need a Pythia to interpret his will. I thought you were one of the chosen?

Doug
10-08-2011, 12:30 AM
@ Doug

It has long been customary that with an appropriate donative all can be revealed.

http://www.crystalinks.com/delphivapors.jpg

We just need a Pythia to interpret his will. I thought you were one of the chosen?

Even the chosen may find it difficult to fathom the inscrutable meaning of the oracle...

Bobgnar
10-08-2011, 02:56 PM
The color of roads in 2 was so important that NASAMW had to make a ruling that they did not need to be Pale Brown. Let's take everything out of 3 that does not impact play. So when is a rule to be followed. Someone wrote that they did not care what color a road was. But do they care how wide they are or how long, or what edges they go to. Phil likes to interject his personal views on how to play games into the rules. The suggestion was that all of these be taken out of the rules and put into a Phil's Preferences section.

There was no squashing of anything, just a request that this topic was less important than, say, making all bases the same size.

I was hoping that members from this Forum would follow up on the very relevant question raised earlier about a good rule to explain how elements move.

Ahem.. more accurately, someone asked whether the fact that because a colour for roads was mentioned in the rules, what would happen if someone objected to his roads as being the 'wrong' colour. This was quickly squashed as being irrelevant.

Details are still being worked out, like what happens when an element is contacted in a position where they don't have room to conform. Which is relevant.

The latest draft has only just been released and I haven't been through it in detail, but it is looking very nearly complete.

neldoreth
10-11-2011, 02:21 PM
Sounds like a party over there at DBA development central!

Thanks for the info and speculation on the release timeline gents, greatly appreciated!

n.

winterbadger
10-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Even the chosen may find it difficult to fathom the inscrutable meaning of the oracle...

This makes me think of the story or Lucius Tarquinius and the Sibylline Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl#Ancient_Roman_prophecies). Maybe the reason that the DBA rules are so lacking in clarity, wordage, examples, and explanation is that an old woman from Cumae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylline_Books#History) offered the perfect rules to Phil to publish, but she asked him for more money than he was willing to pay...

ferrency
10-11-2011, 02:41 PM
This makes me think of the story or Lucius Tarquinius and the Sibylline Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl#Ancient_Roman_prophecies). Maybe the reason that the DBA rules are so lacking in clarity, wordage, examples, and explanation is that an old woman from Cumae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylline_Books#History) offered the perfect rules to Phil to publish, but she asked him for more money than he was willing to pay...

I was reminded of this (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2372) take on oracles (on topic, but not necessarily "appropriate").

kontos
10-11-2011, 03:52 PM
You shall see many sixes on the battlefield. :up

Lobotomy
10-11-2011, 09:17 PM
You shall see many sixes on the battlefield. :up

We know YOU don't. :silly

kontos
10-11-2011, 09:21 PM
We know YOU don't. :silly

Yes I do. Diceman rolled 11 of them in a row in the finals at StoogeCon! :cool

Inari7
10-11-2011, 10:59 PM
The oracle at Delphi was always correct.

BUT Pythia's predictions were usually two edged, and opened to interpretation.

SO

Pythia predicts: There will be a great clamor when DBA 3.0 is released.

neldoreth
10-14-2011, 02:24 PM
I was reminded of this (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2372) take on oracles (on topic, but not necessarily "appropriate").

I love SMBC, but I hadn't read that one. It's awesome! Thanks for the link!

n.

TWR
11-01-2011, 02:55 PM
Was any more information on possible release dates been mentioned by Phil or Sue while they were at Fall-In?

Lobotomy
11-01-2011, 09:12 PM
Was any more information on possible release dates been mentioned by Phil or Sue while they were at Fall-In?

Nope. At least none that I heard.