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View Full Version : List II: LIR(W) & Patrician questions


Ammianus
07-04-2011, 08:40 AM
Just curious, not trying to roil the community. II/78, the late Imperial Romans seem pretty "regular" but we know that frequently large numbers of federates were thrown into the mix (Alaric's thousands fighting for Thedosius at the Battle of the Frigidus for example). Does the option for 1 WB and 1 KN cover this?

The "new" Patrician army could optionally field up to 4 BD (or 2 BD, 2 AX), while LIR (W): 3 BD & 3 AX. I'm a little curious about the 4 BD Patricians; did the auxilia & legions should morph into one generic heavy infantry?

These are two of my favorite armies so I have a high curiosity factor (not that it keeps me up at night)...I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the subject.
Not trying to change anything, just asking.
Thanks & Happy 4th, , A

Redwilde
07-04-2011, 09:54 AM
Alaric's thousands and other large scale federati I think are covered by the deep ally options for big battles, rather than heavy individual options within the primary list.

Ammianus
07-04-2011, 10:39 AM
Roger, makes sense.

Rome
07-04-2011, 01:34 PM
I have fought the Battle of Frigidus using the LIR (W) vs LIR (E) lists. To make it interesting I have added to the western forces a Frankish allied four element command. I think one the the commanders was a Frank by birth. For the eastern forces I have given that army a four element force of allied Early Visgoths. This ands to the battle without going the BBDBA route.

Ammianus
07-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Good thinking! And smoothly organized.

Right, Theodosius' opponent was Arbogast, a Frank. (suicided after losing the battle)

Andreas Johansson
07-04-2011, 03:42 PM
Just curious, not trying to roil the community. II/78, the late Imperial Romans seem pretty "regular" but we know that frequently large numbers of federates were thrown into the mix (Alaric's thousands fighting for Thedosius at the Battle of the Frigidus for example). Does the option for 1 WB and 1 KN cover this?

In the 'MM Patrician list, federates on foot are Bd or Ax, being assumed to have assimilated to Roman ways. Kn are Germanic lancers; not sure what the Wb would be.

Alaric's troops would however be covered by an Early Visigothic list, which includes a few Roman troops for that purpose.

The "new" Patrician army could optionally field up to 4 BD (or 2 BD, 2 AX), while LIR (W): 3 BD & 3 AX. I'm a little curious about the 4 BD Patricians; did the auxilia & legions should morph into one generic heavy infantry?

We-ell, the DBMM list optionally turns Auxilia Palatina into Bd from 468, while lesser auxilia remains Ax to the end (neither type is compulsory in the Patsy list, BTW).

Of course, another school of thought argues there was little difference except in status already in Early Imperial times, but Phil doesn't believe it.

Ammianus
07-04-2011, 04:03 PM
Thanks, my ignorance of DBMM is vast.