Edward Bruce's coat-of-arms?

[miros]

Does anyone know of a source for the coat-of-arms of Edward Bruce, brother of Robert Bruce? I am doing a set of armies for Edward's invasion of Ireland from 1315 when he was crowned High King until his death in battle in 1318.

Thanks!

Jason

[Badger]

Worst case scenario (i.e., not learning anything more useful/reliable), you could always use Robert's arms with whatever the "second son" difference was blazoned on there (I think it's a crescent, but check a heraldry book to make sure).

Or perhaps that system of distinguishing was developed much later, and so would be anachronistic anyway.

In a similar vein, has anyone out there found a good source for the arms of other major "players" in Scotland at the tail end of the 1200's/beginning of the 1300's?

[ March 08, 2004, 14:17: Message edited by: Badger ]

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Badger:
Worst case scenario (i.e., not learning anything more useful/reliable), you could always use Robert's arms with whatever the "second son" difference was blazoned on there (I think it's a crescent, but check a heraldry book to make sure).

Or perhaps that system of distinguishing was developed much later, and so would eb anachronistic anyway.
As you suspect, that system is largely Victorian. The only more-or-less standard differencing mark was a label (sorta like a capital "E" facing down) for the heir.

Remember, arms represented the land, not the person. So Edward Bruce wouldn't have an "Edward Bruce" coat of arms -- he'd have the arms of whatever great estate he owned. During the time when he was King of Ireland, he would wear the arms of the King of Ireland (which might not have been standardized then, in which case he would wear the arms that he thought the King of Ireland should wear).

[Redwilde]

The Bannockburn Heritage Centre, a National Trust for Scotland site, has a tremendous mural of the battle of Bannockburn, and I bought a reproduction poster at the gift shop there back in '83. This shows the coats of arms of the major nobles present at the battle (not including Eddy the B).

The museum does a great slide show presentation based on this mural and is worth the visit if you're in the neighborhood.

I just did a quick google search, and in typical British fashion, there wasn't any easy to find info on how to purchase a copy of this poster from any NTS shop. But if you contact NTS, you might be able to track this down.

[imported_Bryanmd]

Originally posted by miros:
Does anyone know of a source for the coat-of-arms of Edward Bruce, brother of Robert Bruce? I am doing a set of armies for Edward's invasion of Ireland from 1315 when he was crowned High King until his death in battle in 1318.

Thanks!

Jason With you here dude. Two things you can do: 1) Use the Earl of Carrick arms, a white field with a red chevron. This is most usable once Robert Bruce is King. 2) His other shield is a Lion Rampant, I believe blue on a white field, or the other way around (memory, cob webs, can't think)...this I saw in Osprey's Bannockburn book, I believe. Take a looksie and double check me, I am writing this from work. I do know the Earl of Carrick is legit.
Cheers,
Bryan McEachern
(PS- I used earl of carrick for my rendition)

[imported_Bryanmd]

Originally posted by David Kuijt:
Remember, arms represented the land, not the person. So Edward Bruce wouldn't have an "Edward Bruce" coat of arms -- he'd have the arms of whatever great estate he owned. During the time when he was King of Ireland, he would wear the arms of the King of Ireland (which might not have been standardized then, in which case he would wear the arms that he thought the King of Ireland should wear). [/QB]Actually, in the Scottish case, the Lord Lyon of Arms grants arms of personage, not family name (hence the geneology scams for you family coats of arms). There are as you suggest, arms of rank rather than personage; see my previous example of the Earl of Carrick. I am going out of town, but will check my Bannockburn book and get back with you guys. I also have a print of Bannockburn the I got in Stirling (cover of Hammer of the Scots game, btw), I believe that the Earl of Carrick was used in that print for what it is worth.
One idea, contact the Lord Lyon of Arms and ask...they may have a record of Edward's Arms in Ireland (I can't escape the imageof a blue lion rampnat with red claws and tongue on a white field.)
All the best,
Bryan McEachern
(the Lord Lyon sits in Edinburgh, and they are on the web, an easy search)

[<bryanmd>]

Hey there, I got it straight and I am typing this rapidly for you before I go out on vacation. I had it backwards,but only the sources were juxtapositioned. The painting I have of Bannockburn that is also seen on the Hammer of the Scots game shows Edward Bruce to bear the standard of a blue lion rampant on a white field with red claws and teeth/tongue. The Osprey Bannockburn book shows the Earl of Carrick arms, a red chevron on a white field. Pick and choose or combine....
I will probably combine mine down the line myself. A sergeant carrying the Carrick arms, Bruce with the lion rampant....
I hope this helps.

All The Best,
Bryan McEachern

[Redwilde]

Badger wrote me offlist a few weeks ago. It took me a few weeks to gete a chance to dig the Bannockburn poster out of the attic... but might as well post the answer to his questions here:

I bought my copy in 1983. Can't say I remember the price. Badger asked for a rough price quote within £5. That answer would definitely be £6 ;)

The heraldic banners shown for the Scots from left to right acros the battle line are:

(Eddy is here!)

Sir Robert Keith leading the Scottish light cavalry:
argent, a label of four points gules.

Bobby the B -- 2 banners in the command group just behind the lines:
1) or, a lion rampant within a tressure gules.
2) quartered, 1 & 4 as above; 2 & 3, can't quite make out in the furls of the flag argent, a bend and some other stuff or (yup, 2 metals), and possibly something else superimposed in the center.

Sir James Douglas:
argent, 3 mullets (five-pointed stars) on a chief azule. There's a large body of spearmen wearing this tabard too.

Sir Walter Stewart:
or, a fess chequey azure and argent. Plus spearmen with this tabard.

Earl of Moray:
argent, 3 lozenges within a double tressure gules. Plus the largest body of spearmen, tabards have the lozenges only, no tressure.

Sir Edward Bruce:
argent, a lion rampant within a tressure azure. Spearmen, almost or as large a contingent as Moray, tabard without tressure.


For the English, looking left to right from the Scottish side:

King Edward II (fleeing):
gules, 3 lions passant guardant or.

Sir Robert Clifford:
Chequey or and azure, a fess gules.

Sir Henry de Beaument:
azure, a lion rampant or.

Earl of Gloucester
or, 3 chevrons gules.
Leading the English knights (including many retainers -- mounted and on foot -- with tabards and shields matching the Gloucester arms).

Earl of Hereford:
azure, a bend cotised argent, between 6 martlets or.
(in with Gloucester's retainers.)


Also in the mural are numerous banners and tabards of unidentified lesser nobles, that can more or less be discerned. Plenty to go around here for DBA armies.

[ April 04, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: Redwilde ]

[Badger]

Thanks immensely, Redwilde! I'm sure this took quite a bit of time. Just three points I need to verify with you, though:

Sir James Douglas:
argent, 3 mullets (five-pointed stars) on a chief azule.Are the mullets argent?

Earl of Moray:
argent, 3 lozenges within a double tressure gules. Are the lozenges gules?

Sir Edward Bruce:
argent, a lion rampant within a tressure azure. Is the lion azure?


Thanks again!

[ April 05, 2004, 12:23: Message edited by: Badger ]

[Redwilde]

Hi Badger,

It didn't take too long. Mostly getting time to go digging up in the attic. I haven't used my heraldry skills in a long time, but they're not too rusty so typing up the descripitions was quick. the answer to each of your questions is yes -- unless mentioned otherwise, colors match in obvious patterns as you surmised. That's standard heraldic jargon format.

[Badger]

Hmmm. Different convention than I'm used to, which would have the Douglas arms (for example) be "Argent, a chief azure with three mullets of the first" -- but I wouldn't trust my memory or expertise much on this! I'm sure it's varied over time and space anyway.

That label of four points sounds unusual -- three I've seen commonly, but not four.

Is the tressure you mention like that surrounding the lion rampant on the traditional Stewart arms ("or, a lion rampant gules, with the fleur-de-lis counter-charged thingummy going around it", to use the traditional Minnesotan blazonry ;) )?

[Redwilde]

Originally posted by Badger:
Hmmm. Different convention than I'm used to,Or else its the shorthand convention I've developed over the years when jotting down notes for painting figs.


That label of four points sounds unusual -- three I've seen commonly, but not four. A quick google search showed that I hadn't quite read the reproduction of the mural, its actually not a label (but they can come in various points)

What's shown for Keith is actually:
"argent, on a chief gules, charged with three pallets or." (4 broad red stripes and 3 narrow yellow)


Originally posted by Badger:
Is the tressure you mention like that surrounding the lion rampant on the traditional Stewart arms ("or, a lion rampant gules, with the fleur-de-lis counter-charged thingummy going around it", to use the traditional Minnesotan blazonry ;) )? Yes, all the tressures and double tressures appear to be fleury-counter-fleury. The royal Scottish arms are shown in the mural with a single tressure, but in the annotated note at the bottom with a double-tressure.

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by Redwilde:
]Or else its the shorthand convention I've developed over the years when jotting down notes for painting figs.No, Brian's convention is also the one with which I am familiar.

[Badger]

Originally posted by Redwilde:
A quick google search showed that I hadn't quite read the reproduction of the mural, its actually not a label (but they can come in various points)

What's shown for Keith is actually:
"argent, on a chief gules, charged with three pallets or." (4 broad red stripes and 3 narrow yellow)
So I gather then that these pallets extend edge to edge on the chief, but they don't extend down beyond the chief into the argent field the way a label would?

[Darren Buxbaum]

Badger,
in 1998, the magazine "Miniature Wargames" put out a three part series (August - October) dealing with the Scottish Wars of Independence. In the September issue, there was a two pages of illustrations dealing with the heraldry of te Scots and English (up to Falkirk?). The arms are printed in color with their bearers. The author, Ashby McGowan, aslo writes a brief desciption on each noble. He lists 40 coats of arms. If you can't get a copy, I could scan the pages for you and email it to you. Or I could copy all three articles and mail them to you if you would like.
Cheers,
Darren

[Badger]

Many thanks, Darren! I've responded with an e-mail off-list.

[Redwilde]

Originally posted by Badger:
So I gather then that these pallets extend edge to edge on the chief, but they don't extend down beyond the chief into the argent field the way a label would? Correct.

[Macbeth]

Originally posted by &lt;bryanmd&gt;:
The Osprey Bannockburn book shows the Earl of Carrick arms, a red chevron on a white field. For what it is worth, the book 'Celtic Warriors' by Tim Newark with illustrations by Angus McBride has a plate dealing with the Bruce invasion of Ireland titled 'Edward Bruce attacked by Anglo Irish warriors at Moiry Pass in Armagh, Ulster, 1315' which has Bruce wearing the Carrick Chevron.

Sorry about my previous posting, which was just a quoute. My other computer and email address didn't let me log in so I started to reply but couldn't edit.

[<abc123>]

Thats a really good book!

[miros]

Darren,

Do you still have these magazines? I would be interested in getting a copy as I am starting to work on a Scots Common and English opponents.

Thanks,
Jason

Originally posted by Darren Buxbaum:
Badger,
in 1998, the magazine "Miniature Wargames" put out a three part series (August - October) dealing with the Scottish Wars of Independence. In the September issue, there was a two pages of illustrations dealing with the heraldry of te Scots and English (up to Falkirk?). The arms are printed in color with their bearers. The author, Ashby McGowan, aslo writes a brief desciption on each noble. He lists 40 coats of arms. If you can't get a copy, I could scan the pages for you and email it to you. Or I could copy all three articles and mail them to you if you would like.
Cheers,
Darren