Micro shields

[Cremorn]

Hi.
Not sure where to post this question.

I am painting a Late Roman (West) army. I have some Donnington LH and Ps with these little shields the size of dinner plates. (you can see the Ps here:
http://www.donnington-mins.co.uk/middle_and_late_romans_pictures.htm

Are these shields likely? Did they accomplish anything?
Thanks heaps,
Richard.

[derek]

Hullo
The Donnington Roman figures are mostly based on Phil Barker's The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome. There are many drawings of lightly armed psiloi using bucklers. On page 107 their are drawings of several smaller shields used by the Late Imperial Romans. Similarly, the Early Byzantine psiloi (discussed on page 110 drawing number 63 page 109) made extensive use of small bucklers for javelinmen, slingers and psiloi archers. Light troops in Roman service during the Late Imperial Roman / Patrician Roman period were often recruited from "client states".
In other words they need not necessarily have been "Romans" but were often allies for example the Early Armenian javelinman on page 122 drawing number 94 who is also showed using a small buckler type shield. One assumes that small shields served some practical purpose, for example to deflect the missiles of enemy psiloi ?or why use them ?
Kind Regards
Derek

[ October 03, 2003, 09:14: Message edited by: derek ]

[imported_adsarf]

Bucklers have been used in plenty of very well-documented cultures. There's an interesting article here http://www.thehaca.com/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

Whilst you'd be much better off dodging any missile you could see coming rather than trying to catch it with a very small shield, when fighting hand-to-hand a small buckler is a very useful piece of kit.

Andrew

[nick hux]

Andrew,

I fear you are getting a little obsessed on this point ;) . I can't argue against the use of a buckler in close combat, but I would challenge whether they are no good against missiles.

Firstly, their use by light troops otherwise completely unsuited to close combat shows they can't have been for close combat only.

Secondly, I think there is anecdotal support for their use against missiles. I have never been in a skirmish with arrows/javelins/slings, but I have been in one with snowballs :D . While a bin lid is a good defence, it slows you down and has to be lowered while you fire. Very often the best defence is to deflect incoming missiles with your hand - and it is this kind of thing that the small shield would have been useful for.

Nick

Originally posted by adsarf:
Bucklers have been used in plenty of very well-documented cultures. There's an interesting article here http://www.thehaca.com/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm

Whilst you'd be much better off dodging any missile you could see coming rather than trying to catch it with a very small shield, when fighting hand-to-hand a small buckler is a very useful piece of kit.

Andrew

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by nick h:
Andrew,

I fear you are getting a little obsessed on this point ;) No, this is my 'polite disputation' setting. My 'obsessed' setting is a lot worse than this. Besides, I stuck closely to Cremorn's original questions (are bucklers likely? yes: there very well attested in many cultures. What use are they? well there seems to be some dispute, but I have my opinions)

Normally I try to treat re-enactment 'evidence' politely but snowballs????!!??!? Would you have tried that with a javelin, an arrow or even a well-flung rock?

Anyway, even if your point has some validity for javelinmen (which, in 'polite disputation' mode I shall tactfully refrain from questioning any further) a significant number of instances relate to archers (e.g. the Cretans who started this whole business) and its difficult to see how they could aim to use their bows and their shields at the same time. Where we have better evidence (e.g. in the Medieval period) we know very well that they did not.

Andrew

[Cremorn]

Thanks a lot for your answers. I am familiar with the buckler as a small shield used in hand to hand fighting with small swords, but:
1. Wow! that is a really *small* buckler (wouldn't even take a T-bone), and
2. I was under the impression that "Feet, don't fail me now!" was the preferred method of defense among skirmishers in the know.

I have been reading late Rome for a while, but not so much military (so I know nothing). Time to track down Barker and MacDowall.
Thanks,
Richard.

[nick hux]

Originally posted by adsarf:
Normally I try to treat re-enactment 'evidence' politely but snowballs????!!??!? Would you have tried that with a javelin, an arrow or even a well-flung rock?
My point was mainly that it is possible to pick up incoming "missiles" on an individual basis. Javelins, at least, travel slow enough that you would see them coming and have some chance to react, less sure about arrows or sling shot. I would rather use a shield than my hand to protect myself, but I'd rather stop javelin/arrow/rock with my hand than my head :D .

Another point is that the buckler was used as a "protected fist" in close combat, i.e. aggressively to open up the opponent to the use of the sword. (At least that's how I understand it - could easily be wrong :confused: .) I don't see how you could do this with a shield strapped to your forearm - or is that not historical?

As you spotted, I'm largely arguing from from ignorance, but I'd like to think I'm just making sure your 'polite disputation' is consistent ;) .

Nick

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by Cremorn:
Thanks a lot for your answers. I am familiar with the buckler as a small shield used in hand to hand fighting with small swords, but:
1. Wow! that is a really *small* buckler (wouldn't even take a T-bone), and
2. I was under the impression that "Feet, don't fail me now!" was the preferred method of defense among skirmishers in the know.

I have been reading late Rome for a while, but not so much military (so I know nothing). Time to track down Barker and MacDowall.
Thanks,
Richard. Richard

1. Really small bucklers are definitely recorded for medieval times when we have lots of all kinds of evidence. As Nick says, its mainly there to protect your fist.

2. I'm a heretic so I agree with you completely (which means I treat guys with small bucklers as Ax - willing and able to fight hand-to-hand, but not necessarily very good at it), but DBX games have a lot of skirmishers rated as psiloi and equipped with really tiny shields. Nick thinks they could be used to catch snowballs or javelins - and obviously Phil Barker agrees.

Andrew

p.s. Nick - your point about the forearm is important, but we should go back to 'shield heresies' if we want to discuss that.

[Ed Dillon]

Originally posted by adsarf:
Andrew

p.s. Nick - your point about the forearm is important, but we should go back to 'shield heresies' if we want to discuss that. Wouldn't a small shield strapped to the forearm be a "targe"? (I'm being a heretic and NOT going back to "shield heresies" with this one...)
Ed

[David Kuijt]

Originally posted by nick h:

Another point is that the buckler was used as a "protected fist" in close combat, i.e. aggressively to open up the opponent to the use of the sword. (At least that's how I understand it - could easily be wrong :confused: .)I'm sure there are many different styles of fighting with bucklers, but I wouldn't characterize them all that way. I have fought with bucklers (most recently just this last weekend) in full-contact combat, and they are very useful for punch-blocking (actively moving to intersect the path of) an enemy's blow with a cutting/smashing weapon. More useful, for me at least, than they are for a shield-snatch or press (attempting to open a path for a sword strike).

[imported_adsarf]

Originally posted by Ed Dillon:
Wouldn't a small shield strapped to the forearm be a "targe"? (I'm being a heretic and NOT going back to "shield heresies" with this one...)
Ed You people are just trying to provoke me. As Oscar Wilde said, I can resist everything except temptation...

To the best of my knowledge the word 'targe' or 'target' refers to a shape rather than a particular method of carrying the shield, but that isn't really my period and I'm ready to be corrected.

The problem we have with shields strapped to the arm in the classical period in Europe (which is what my original heresy referred to) is that we have iconographic evidence of all kinds of improbable strapped-to-the-arm arrangements. You can see various strapped-to-the arm scutums (or, more strictly, scuta) in Phil Barker's Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome. Some of these show the shield strapped lengthwise, some crosswise (which looks very odd), some have the soldier's elbow cramped awkwardly in the shield boss, some just quietly ignore the boss - so we have to assume it must be there for decoration. These shields aren't attested in the archaeological record and they look very odd indeed but (as Phil says in his book) we can't just rule them out altogether when they are really quite clearly (if inconsistently)depicted in some of the sources we do have.

In the same way, some Greek vases show the Thracian pelta worn strapped to the arm - sometimes with a hoplite-style bronze armband, sometimes by more credible-looking crossed straps. Are these artist's errors (the Greeks weren't famous for their respectful attention towards the details of other people's cultures) or not? If not, are they 'original' Thracian features or the result of Greek influence?

So we make assumptions in order to build a model of ancient combat. The idea of my original 'heresy' was to present a set of assumptions which were simpler, more public and more consistent than those used in orthodox DBA army lists, based on shield types and usage. But it did rely on treating some of this evidence as 'artistic licence'.

But to get back to the original point: David, would your experience suggest any use for the buckler (or another small shield) in fending off missiles, or do you just use it in close combat?

Andrew

[<Ed Dillon>]

Thanks for the info. I usually associate a "targe" with Scots Highlanders. I suppose that I have seen too many pictures of Scots lads with a targe on their off arm and firing a musket.
Ed